Are we drifting away from "Classic" Zombies?

[TheBSZombie]

I really dont think upgrading the staffs was something that should be looked upon as being forced to do the easter egg. I dont think it should even be consider part of the easter egg anyways in my honest opinion. Its just getting a weapon to add to your arsenal.

When playing call of the dead you HAD to hit the box so you could get the vr11 if you wanted to do the easter egg. Did that mean the easter egg was forced upon you? No! Hitting the box is part of the game for 98% of the players. Same as moon with the zap guns and in shangri la with the baby gun. All of these you need to do the easter egg but did you ever feel forced to do the easter egg? If so well we are different, because I never did. And sometimes getting these items from the box could take WAY longer then upgrading a staff.

[Dahniska]

Now get to a high round with just a papped weapon and no staff, you may find a very challenging and exciting map in origins.

My highest round without building any staffs in round 57 with no downs. Was no challenge whatsoever to be honest. That is one of the reasons I don't enjoy it.

I get what you are saying about the 'Damned if they do and damned if they don't' though. Not every map is going to be to every ones taste, but I just felt Origins was not a good map for a final DLC. It has no holding power for me personally. It got boring after a week of release and I have only played it once since the first week.

Tried going back but after a few rounds I just give up on it. Same for most BO2 maps. There is no challenge to any of them. Maybe NTZ but I personally think that was a wasted and rushed opportunity. All the other maps are extremely easy to hit high rounds, and it is more so that zombies has become time based rather than skill based.

My own view is that Treyarch intentionally made zombies easy on BO2 to cater for the people who were not so good at the game mode in an attempt at cashing in on the mode more so than ever. On WaW and BO1 it as a challenge to hit high rounds.

This is not the case anymore.

The only map I think is made specifically for people who are bad at Zombies is Buried. TranZit and Die Rise have banks too now, but TranZit is a bit hard cause you must learn how to get around the map. Mob, you must open up the map and you need good teamwork to get far. Same for Origins.

I don't really see how it's easy to hit high rounds on maps other than Buried. Most are a little forgiving with in most cases being able to take more downs than before, but that's about it. Oh, and weapons are generally better in BO2 due to DT2 but there's much less traps.

In the end you must be able to train and be consistently good at making good decisions to get far in BO2 zombies, just like BO1. Buried excepted, of course. I don't see how it's just about time and not skill. Takes ages in BO1 as well, and I feel like in Origins especially the zombies have smarter AI.

[Chopper]

Tried going back but after a few rounds I just give up on it. Same for most BO2 maps. There is no challenge to any of them. Maybe NTZ but I personally think that was a wasted and rushed opportunity. All the other maps are extremely easy to hit high rounds, and it is more so that zombies has become time based rather than skill based.

My own view is that Treyarch intentionally made zombies easy on BO2 to cater for the people who were not so good at the game mode in an attempt at cashing in on the mode more so than ever. On WaW and BO1 it as a challenge to hit high rounds.

This is not the case anymore.

I completely agree about making it easier for players who aren't so good, but tbh I think they missed the mark anyway.

Tranzit was so hard for new players that they had to introduce a bank and 'perma' perks for people to get anywhere.

The main issue is that people are either good enough, or they aren't. Ultimately if you are good enough to get to 100 on say Die Rise, which could be classed as an easy map, you are good enough to do the same on every other map that it's possible on.

The hardest map for 100 is probably Five or maybe Shang (excluding Nacht), and they are only actually difficult for the first 50 rounds.

Once past 50 on any map, you have done at least the majority of the hard work.

The only hard work now is something like box hitting.

On reflection, the introduction of perma perks and the bank probably made them all too easy. Coupled with the fact that people are generally better now, due to 3/4 years of practise.

And finally Superhands. At the end of the day, he created strategies for each and every BO map, which anyone could follow to get to whatever round they want.

The only difference is that BO2 is ultimately simpler in the majority of cases to do it, and more often than not does not require guides for a lot of people.

In BO2, people only need guides for the EEs and buildables.

More space, more perks, more knowledge, more practise.....a game that has been described as a more complex version of the nokia classic snake is never going to really really test you. If there is an area big enough to kite, a weapon or trap that has infinite damage, well, how can you make a map hard anymore?

[TheBSZombie]

Tried going back but after a few rounds I just give up on it. Same for most BO2 maps. There is no challenge to any of them. Maybe NTZ but I personally think that was a wasted and rushed opportunity. All the other maps are extremely easy to hit high rounds, and it is more so that zombies has become time based rather than skill based.

My own view is that Treyarch intentionally made zombies easy on BO2 to cater for the people who were not so good at the game mode in an attempt at cashing in on the mode more so than ever. On WaW and BO1 it as a challenge to hit high rounds.

This is not the case anymore.

I completely agree about making it easier for players who aren't so good, but tbh I think they missed the mark anyway.

Tranzit was so hard for new players that they had to introduce a bank and 'perma' perks for people to get anywhere.

The main issue is that people are either good enough, or they aren't. Ultimately if you are good enough to get to 100 on say Die Rise, which could be classed as an easy map, you are good enough to do the same on every other map that it's possible on.

The hardest map for 100 is probably Five or maybe Shang (excluding Nacht), and they are only actually difficult for the first 50 rounds.

Once past 50 on any map, you have done at least the majority of the hard work.

The only hard work now is something like box hitting.

On reflection, the introduction of perma perks and the bank probably made them all too easy. Coupled with the fact that people are generally better now, due to 3/4 years of practise.

And finally Superhands. At the end of the day, he created strategies for each and every BO map, which anyone could follow to get to whatever round they want.

The only difference is that BO2 is ultimately simpler in the majority of cases to do it, and more often than not does not require guides for a lot of people.

In BO2, people only need guides for the EEs and buildables.

More space, more perks, more knowledge, more practise.....a game that has been described as a more complex version of the nokia classic snake is never going to really really test you. If there is an area big enough to kite, a weapon or trap that has infinite damage, well, how can you make a map hard anymore?

I would say that the ONLY thing that makes a map hard is the size of a kiting area. Anyone can kite in the crazy place, but can you kite in the spawn room of five? Anyone can kite in the budha room in die rise, but can you kite in shangri la? uea a weapon/trap is needed for going for a round 100+ but if you are going for a wr on that map, then usually you dont need that infinite dmg weapon or a trap, but just skill in training. Im not 100% sure i described what im trying to say, so in summary, the only thing that makes a map hard is if there is a training area or not.

[DeathBringerZen]

I really dont think upgrading the staffs was something that should be looked upon as being forced to do the easter egg. I dont think it should even be consider part of the easter egg anyways in my honest opinion. Its just getting a weapon to add to your arsenal.

When playing call of the dead you HAD to hit the box so you could get the vr11 if you wanted to do the easter egg. Did that mean the easter egg was forced upon you? No! Hitting the box is part of the game for 98% of the players. Same as moon with the zap guns and in shangri la with the baby gun. All of these you need to do the easter egg but did you ever feel forced to do the easter egg? If so well we are different, because I never did. And sometimes getting these items from the box could take WAY longer then upgrading a staff.

There is instances on CotD, Shangri La and Moon where doing certain steps increases the chances of getting the aforementioned weapons easier from the box.

Also, the items that are pulled from the box do not have to be used for the EE. None of the previous maps EE's were forced, or felt that way. I only do the Moon EE every time I play it because it is A: Fun to do, and B: Worthwhile. On Origins, you need to do some of the steps in order to get the staff and then to upgrade them. People may not look at them as part of the EE, but they are. You cannot progress with the EE without getting the staff or upgrading them.

I get what people are saying though with regards to the staffs and upgrading them and I did say already that I misinterpreted some of the steps required in upgrading them, but with this aside, the map is still tedious and a chore to play through. At least maps like Moon were fun to play on irregardless of doing the EE. Origins is just not fun in my opinion... EE or not!

Still... this is just my opinion. I have played the map a few times without doing the EE and just don't find it fun in the slightest.

[Chopper]

I would say that the ONLY thing that makes a map hard is the size of a kiting area. Anyone can kite in the crazy place, but can you kite in the spawn room of five? Anyone can kite in the budha room in die rise, but can you kite in shangri la? uea a weapon/trap is needed for going for a round 100+ but if you are going for a wr on that map, then usually you dont need that infinite dmg weapon or a trap, but just skill in training. Im not 100% sure i described what im trying to say, so in summary, the only thing that makes a map hard is if there is a training area or not.

Clear to me mate. I believe that once you reach a certain level, you can kite almost anywhere. Man I've seen people get an entire hoard in the war room lift on Five.

[MegaAfroMan]

Although I'm not the greatest at zombies (nothing past 50 here ) I'd have to contradict Zen, my highest rounds are on Black Ops 1. I've been to the mid 40s on Moon, Der Riese, Shi No, Kino, Ascension, CotD. I've only been to the 30s on the Bo2 maps except Die Rise.

I feel like before they added in mainly the tombstone persistant upgrade, Tranzit (maybe die rise in that limbo time between the nerfing of the sliquifier and that awful exploit roon, and the creation of thee tombstone upgrade) was actually a lot harder, as if you went down, you'd have to make it back to all of your perks without screwing up. In most other maps this is maybe a few minutes lapping around the map once or twice. In TranZit it's a 10 minute ordeal with creatures jumping on your head every 7 seconds. Die rise also threw in those elevators making judging exactly where your perks are to be left to chance.

Buried is easy. No doubt.

I swear that the layout of Mob makes it harder than other mpas, but it has the first (and only) infinite damage trap in BO2, so I understand how that might help a little.

Origins is in my opinion the perfect map for people who can barely scratch 50. You're given so much to do, and it lets you feel much more accomplished about making it to round 30 or 40 as you've had to go through all these little objectives and challenges on your way there.

To people who can hit 70+ this might feel like a boring waste of time, just slowing down your set up for the inevitiable 60 or 70 rounds you'll be playing, but to us low rounders (or at least me and the people I know, as origins is the most played map on MY friends list) it is exciting as we don't expect to get far in the first place, so having our game be filled with objectives gives us something to aim for for accomplisment rather than round 187 to actually be in the top 10 on the leaderboards(or whatever the record is...).

[DeathBringerZen]

I completely agree about making it easier for players who aren't so good, but tbh I think they missed the mark anyway.

Tranzit was so hard for new players that they had to introduce a bank and 'perma' perks for people to get anywhere.

The main issue is that people are either good enough, or they aren't. Ultimately if you are good enough to get to 100 on say Die Rise, which could be classed as an easy map, you are good enough to do the same on every other map that it's possible on.

The hardest map for 100 is probably Five or maybe Shang (excluding Nacht), and they are only actually difficult for the first 50 rounds.

Once past 50 on any map, you have done at least the majority of the hard work.

The only hard work now is something like box hitting.

On reflection, the introduction of perma perks and the bank probably made them all too easy. Coupled with the fact that people are generally better now, due to 3/4 years of practise.

And finally Superhands. At the end of the day, he created strategies for each and every BO map, which anyone could follow to get to whatever round they want.

The only difference is that BO2 is ultimately simpler in the majority of cases to do it, and more often than not does not require guides for a lot of people.

In BO2, people only need guides for the EEs and buildables.

More space, more perks, more knowledge, more practise.....a game that has been described as a more complex version of the nokia classic snake is never going to really really test you. If there is an area big enough to kite, a weapon or trap that has infinite damage, well, how can you make a map hard anymore?

Yeah, that is a pretty good assessment of the game. I understand the progression of the game but feel they implemented to many things that made the game too easy overall, but my main concern is when a map becomes too easy, it then kills off any longevity unless of course the side quests offer something worthwhile.

I just feel none of the EE's were worth doing more than once. The Buried end-game would have been good if the map was better, or if the allowed the box to be activated on other maps like Tranzit or Die Rise as opposed to just Buried. Origins felt like the most unrewarding of them all, but that is just my opinion, and I know that it is not necessarily the views of everyone.

[The Clay Bird]

I completely agree about making it easier for players who aren't so good, but tbh I think they missed the mark anyway.

Tranzit was so hard for new players that they had to introduce a bank and 'perma' perks for people to get anywhere.

The main issue is that people are either good enough, or they aren't. Ultimately if you are good enough to get to 100 on say Die Rise, which could be classed as an easy map, you are good enough to do the same on every other map that it's possible on.

The hardest map for 100 is probably Five or maybe Shang (excluding Nacht), and they are only actually difficult for the first 50 rounds.

Once past 50 on any map, you have done at least the majority of the hard work.

The only hard work now is something like box hitting.

On reflection, the introduction of perma perks and the bank probably made them all too easy. Coupled with the fact that people are generally better now, due to 3/4 years of practise.

And finally Superhands. At the end of the day, he created strategies for each and every BO map, which anyone could follow to get to whatever round they want.

The only difference is that BO2 is ultimately simpler in the majority of cases to do it, and more often than not does not require guides for a lot of people.

In BO2, people only need guides for the EEs and buildables.

More space, more perks, more knowledge, more practise.....a game that has been described as a more complex version of the nokia classic snake is never going to really really test you. If there is an area big enough to kite, a weapon or trap that has infinite damage, well, how can you make a map hard anymore?

Yeah, that is a pretty good assessment of the game. I understand the progression of the game but feel they implemented to many things that made the game too easy overall, but my main concern is when a map becomes too easy, it then kills off any longevity unless of course the side quests offer something worthwhile.

I just feel none of the EE's were worth doing more than once. The Buried end-game would have been good if the map was better, or if the allowed the box to be activated on other maps like Tranzit or Die Rise as opposed to just Buried. Origins felt like the most unrewarding of them all, but that is just my opinion, and I know that it is not necessarily the views of everyone.

The fun part of zombies isn't getting to round 100 though. that's not the point. The real fun in zombies lies in co-op with friends trying to survive as long as you can. the maps that are tough to start out are the most fun because what satisfaction do you get in success if it is a forgone conclusion. Origins is great fun because rounds 3-13 are so tough. the fact that you may not always make it to round 10 makes it that much more satisfying when you do. That is what the bank and fridge took away from die rise and buried. and to a lesser extent tranzit (which honestly who could be bothered to wait for the stupid fucking bus long enough to even get to the town right?)

that's why mob and origins will hold the replay value in black ops 2, its because they have the classic zombies formula. earn your points, survive, and spend them wisely.

i sure as hell hope they hold to that formula for the next installment

[DeathBringerZen]

that's why mob and origins will hold the replay value in black ops 2, its because they have the classic zombies formula. earn your points, survive, and spend them wisely.

I like the way they went with MotD, but not so much Origins, and to say Origins will hold the replay value in B02...

Well... there was only 900 people playing Origins on Live last night, where as there was 1500+ playing Tranzit and 1300+ playing MotD.

Origins has severely decreased in popularity it seems.

[Hells Warrrior]

Origins has severely decreased in popularity it seems.

Has it decreased in popularity or has it got rid people who are used to spending cash at the bank, or playing the "easier" maps. Making it a bit more likely to get random players who know what they are doing?

Origins is a hard map and the new breed of players don't like it, one of my best mates loves Zombies but hates Origins, another gets frustrated with it because of the difficulty level.

[Chopper]

Origins has severely decreased in popularity it seems.

Has it decreased in popularity or has it got rid people who are used to spending cash at the bank, or playing the "easier" maps. Making it a bit more likely to get random players who know what they are doing?

Origins is a hard map and the new breed of players don't like it, one of my best mates loves Zombies but hates Origins, another gets frustrated with it because of the difficulty level.

I think this has a lot to do with it. Origins is actually easy when you know how to do it. Kinda. With my usual 4, 3 of whom have done 100 solo on this map, we will die on round 8 maybe 20% of the time. Little bit of lag at the wrong time, someone's down.

To make it easy, you need to have played it a lot. This develops your situational awareness which is crucial on this map. Things like automatically checking where the robot is before crossing a footprint, knowing when you are safe to move backwards shooting.....there are countless places you can get trapped in a 'mini' corner.

For the casual gamer, Origins is really, really hard.

[sh3baproject]

are we drifting from classic zombies? if by classic you mean the rape training we always do in every map then not yet,although camping is starting to be more empahized in maps like buried.

[ThrowAmonkeyBomb]

are we drifting from classic zombies? if by classic you mean the rape training we always do in every map then not yet,although camping is starting to be more empahized in maps like buried.

Yeah,I dont understaand buried.

i mean its like..so easy it looks.

for high rounds i mean,once you get set up.not saying I dont like buried,im also mot that good at it. :oops: :lol:

[DeathBringerZen]

Has it decreased in popularity or has it got rid people who are used to spending cash at the bank, or playing the "easier" maps. Making it a bit more likely to get random players who know what they are doing?

Origins is a hard map and the new breed of players don't like it, one of my best mates loves Zombies but hates Origins, another gets frustrated with it because of the difficulty level.

Well, it obviously HAS decreased in popularity if less people are playing it, but you could be right. A percentage of the people who have abandoned it have probably done so due to difficulty, but that is not the case for me or the people I have on my friends list who I play with frequently.

We have all maxed out our leaderboards within the first week of launch, or in some cases cannot be bothered to because of the feeling towards the map.

I don't find the map difficult. Yes, mistakes or even LAG can disrupt a game, but we pick up and dust of and then carry on. Recovery is not that difficult due to the size of the map.

From what I have read online through various mediums, the general feeling is that Origins was a letdown for a lot of people. Not everyone obviously, but I know of great players who do not like it, so it is not down to the difficulty.

As I said... I don't find it difficult in the slightest, but I still don't enjoy playing it. I also have several people on my friends list who have set obscene records on it (one player has something like 8000 headshots on it), and even they don't think the map is that great.

It is just down to personal preference. Some like it, some don't.

[TEX]

one thing I really like about origins is the graphics and the "feel" the overall setting brings forward.

[lead_psychopath]

A little bit off topic, and I don't really want to sound like a numpty here, especially as this is my first post, but is kiting the same as training? and if it is, why is it called kiting??

I really like origins, but it's a love hate relationship. But I will say I used to hate MOTD because it took so long to get to round 30 (1.5h vs 30-40 mins on Town or NTZ), but Origins take it to a whole new level. I was playing a game a few days ago, we were playing for about an hour, and were still on r11, waiting for the robots to come past for all the wind staff parts.

For me, Origins would be great if you could just buy Double Tap from a perk machine. I'd never get the staffs unless I was going for a high round if DT was easy to get.

Oh, and the wonderfizz always seems to give me deadshot or mule kick, I rarely get dt from it.

[Chopper]

A little bit off topic, and I don't really want to sound like a numpty here, especially as this is my first post, but is kiting the same as training? and if it is, why is it called kiting??

Welcome mate. It's ok, everyone on occasion sounds like a numpty, but over here we don't judge

I jest, no question is too stupid.

Train came from syndicate, and Rape Train. We don't like that term over here, and so it's rarely used.

Kiting as a term comes from the 90s, introduced in the early days of MMORPG. Don't know where it came from exactly, but I remember reading about the term way back in the late 90s.

[lead_psychopath]

Thanks for the response man. Never knew that it was Syndicate that came up with that. Amazed that it took off so much! Kiting from now on though!

[TheNathanNS]

In my opinion, yes.

Buried is the worst for this as we can have everything built and have PAP'd weapons before Round 2. Whereas in BO1 [Excluding Moon] we couldn't PAP on Round 1. Likewise we couldn't get Jug. Nor could we have all areas open etc.

Also I feel the EE's weren't really thrown upon us, except for Origins. In Buried we hard Richtofen and Maxis telling us to do this but they eventually shut up, unlike Origins where Sam doesn't STFU, but in Call of the Dead we had the O4 banging on the door telling us to get the fuse. But unlike Buried/Origins we didn't have Richtofen/Dempsey/Nikolai threatening us if we didn't free them.

Mob of the Dead however, the EE was very easy and we could actually do the EE without knowing it, but we didn't have Al going "Guys, we need to get back to the bridge! I think I know how to break the cycle!" or Brutus giving us hints.

[Undead]

Also I feel the EE's weren't really thrown upon us, except for Origins. In Buried we hard Richtofen and Maxis telling us to do this but they eventually shut up, unlike Origins where Sam doesn't STFU, but in Call of the Dead we had the O4 banging on the door telling us to get the fuse. But unlike Buried/Origins we didn't have Richtofen/Dempsey/Nikolai threatening us if we didn't free them.

Mob of the Dead however, the EE was very easy and we could actually do the EE without knowing it, but we didn't have Al going "Guys, we need to get back to the bridge! I think I know how to break the cycle!" or Brutus giving us hints.

I enjoyed it more when these "EE" were really "Easter Eggs" rather than an objective. This season they were basically thrusted upon us.

I could say that a thousand times over and still it wouldn't be enough. That's the biggest thing that changed for me, especially this season. My idea of "classic" is when everything was more a mystery with scattered clues rather than this huge chaotic mess of interchangeable eras, storylines, and characters.

[TheNathanNS]

Also I feel the EE's weren't really thrown upon us, except for Origins. In Buried we hard Richtofen and Maxis telling us to do this but they eventually shut up, unlike Origins where Sam doesn't STFU, but in Call of the Dead we had the O4 banging on the door telling us to get the fuse. But unlike Buried/Origins we didn't have Richtofen/Dempsey/Nikolai threatening us if we didn't free them.

Mob of the Dead however, the EE was very easy and we could actually do the EE without knowing it, but we didn't have Al going "Guys, we need to get back to the bridge! I think I know how to break the cycle!" or Brutus giving us hints.

I enjoyed it more when these "EE" were really "Easter Eggs" rather than an objective. This season they were basically thrusted upon us.

I could say that a thousand times over and still it wouldn't be enough. That's the biggest thing that changed for me, especially this season. My idea of "classic" is when everything was more a mystery with scattered clues rather than this huge chaotic mess of interchangeable eras, storylines, and characters.

Personally I think TranZit/Die Rise/Buried* don't have the "classic" EE's, they were all the same. Just light up a tower and you're done.

Tada. Here's all the perks but you'll lose them when you go down.

But yeah Der Riese was the best for "story" EE's. I remember when I first gor DR and spent my first few games searching for these radios. haha

Was kinda disapointed with BO2 with "The Flesh" and Samuel's voices could've made a fantastic EE.

[TheBSZombie]

From my understanding, a sub of syndicate gave syndicate the name rape train. Yes syndicate could have overlooked that answer when he was asking for names when naming his beloved train, but nonetheless he didnt come up with the name all on his own from my understanding.