The Paradox, Samantha, and Agartha

[InfestLithium]

Warning: If you have not done the Easter Egg for Origins or do not want to know the ending just yet, avoid this thread as much as you can.

We have finally uncovered the beginning to the ending, and the finale of what we have begun. The final cutscene - much to many people's dismay - revealed a little too much of a horrific condition that the Zombies we've come to understand and live through is all but a child's game...or is it? I'm here, friendos, to show us how wrong we've been to turn the other cheek.

Let's begin with understanding the paradox of Origins.

The Paradoxical Circumstance

In the winter of 1918, two German scientists by the names of Doctor Ludvig Maxis and Doctor Edward Richtofen brought their research and team - Group 935 - to mine in an ancient cavern somewhere in Northen France. Their result after months of research resulted in an Ancient Evil awakening as the element 115 was uncovered. Soon, their work led to their own destruction.

Allied forced reared, with plans to capture the leading scientists. What they soon discovered was a battlefield full of giant patrolling robots, German/Ancient zombies, and a bloody Richtofen that had recently performed a lobotomy on what was Doctor Ludvig Maxis. The unlikely group of soldiers teamed up to fight off the hordes while listening to the ominous voice of a young girl calling herself Samantha. With their help, the Allies and the German freed her from Agartha and lived happily ever after.

Well guess what? It did happen. But at the same time, it never truly occurred. How could this be you say? Simple - it's a paradox.

I must go see Samantha now, the paradox must be resolved.

Maxis says this quote right as you release him into the light. We'll go into more discussion about that event, but let's focus on what he just said. The four 'heroes' just freed Samantha from what she called Agartha. The paradox Maxis speaks of is something more than just the cutscene. For the moment, ignore the cutscene. Here is the pure definition of a paradox.

par·a·dox noun \ˈper-ə-ˌdäks, ˈpa-rə-\

Definition of PARADOX

1: a tenet contrary to received opinion

2

a : a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true

b : a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true

c : an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises

3: one (as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases

In other words, a paradox happens when there is some form of opposite that juxtaposes the original idea. It is against what what originally supposed to function as. The paradox we see in Origins is not the cutscene; it's not Zombies being a child's game or Samantha playing with a boy named Eddie (who we would probably jump to conclusion saying it's Edward Richtofen).

The paradox is Samantha.

Samantha: The Paradox of Time and Space

Can't wrap your head around it yet? Allow me to elaborate a bit more. The paradox IS Samantha in Origins, but it goes a bit deeper than that. We know that when we play Origins, Samantha tells us she is trapped and attempted to reach her father for help on escaping. Alas, he succumbed to the illness from 115 and was soon "removed" from himself entirely. The best way I can explain what occurs afterwards is through a little table.

Do you see what happened? Pre-Easter Egg, Origins was true to some extent. Samantha inserting herself into a timeline she did not even exist in greatly displaced the era, thus creating what is known as a time distortion. This concept is very much similar - if not, exact - to what element 115 is capable of. The abilities and magnitude of 115 through the distortion unbalanced everything in time. The best way to explain the wonders of 115-time/space relationships is in MMX's thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=155&t=35943

When 115 is channeled towards the ancient stones, an energy field appears to drag unknown objects into our reality. Is it possible that Element 115 is disrupting the space time continuum itself? How else could an ancient box, created eons ago bring forth weapons from different eras? Perhaps including even our own future! Further study is needed to understand these powerful and unpredictable forces.

115 has the unnatural ability to pluck objects and references from certain timelines and insert them into areas where they may not really belong. If they truly should not belong somewhere, you will end up with something like this:

The perk machines in Mob of the Dead are distorted because they do not belong there. Not on a larger spectrum, imagine how much more destruction this might cause...hint hint, it's what Origins is and is not. The table directly shows what happened before freeing Samantha, and what happened after freeing Samantha.

But how is this possible? Look back at Maxis' quote. "...the paradox must be resolved" is not implying that the very simple act of freeing Samantha is the paradox. Rather, Samantha intervening in a timeline she is not meant to be in is the cause. Releasing her from Agartha only told revealed to us that there was indeed a paradox within Origins. Now this is where things get tricky. How do we know that Origins is false prior to the Easter Egg and that Samantha is the reason behind this problem? The key is her. The why to the question is the Crazy Place, a.k.a. Agartha.

The Realm of Agartha - The Crazy Place

Ahhh, the magical land of Agartha. The perfect hotspot for Zombie discussions and one of the most-desired locations to fight off zombies in. Apparently, our dear little Samantha is trapped somewhere in there and asks our four heroes to free her. But it seems that even prior to her, a certain German had a much similar route to take.

I must work quickly, there is so much to do, a vessel for Maxis, the staffs, the opening of the gateway.

Richtofen knew very well about the research going into the study of Agartha. This, of course, was due to Ludvig Maxis' work as he himself was following the steps which Samantha told him. To further prove this fairly-odd paradox of Samantha's intrusion in Origins, even Maxis does not recollect knowing her existence.

The child's voice calls to me more frequently than ever. At first she spoke only of her imprisonment in a mythical realm known as "Agartha". Now she claims to be my daughter, even though I know no such child exists! (sigh) I fear my sanity may be slipping away from me.

You might be asking the computer screen "what do these quotes have to do with the Crazy Place being a part of Agartha"? Allow me to explain a bit further into this.

The Crazy Place is a realm that does not follow the same essence of our Earthly dimensions. It can travel through space and time. It is not linear in our timeline as a result. This ancient realm is accessed by using a gramophone to play what Samantha calls "songs of the ancients" which actually levitates stones nearby to open a portal to the realm. While there are four portals known to exists, they all lead to the same realm with different "entrances".

In it, four pillars stand - one for fire, one for lightning, one for wind, and one for frost. They aren't perfect elemental attributes for Earth (where it's just water, fire, earth, and air); however, they are the correct attributes for the Crazy Place. It's also important to note that the only zombies that spawn here are carnivorous (kudos to MMX for pointing that out) Ancient Agarthans.

Note the Black Sun symbols on their faces and chestplates. The Black Sun symbol - mistaken for a black swastika - is common to many of us hardcore slayers. A short excerpt from Rissole's Nazis, Vril, Thule, Die Glocke, Illuminati and More contains most of the information regarding the relations of the Black Sun to said ancient groups.

"The symbol common to the Vril Society, the Thule Society and the Nazi Movement was the black swastika. The swastika is a sun symbol. The black swastika represents the Black Sun.

The Sufis believe in a fourth dimension, a "Hidden World" (Rumi Mathnavi, quoted in Idries Shah: The Sufis, New York 1964). This common belief was one of the reasons for the early contacts established by Thule Society members with Sufi and Dervish organisations in Turkey in the early decades of the 20th century. The Thule/Vril Society held that the Hidden World actually exists and is populated by highly advanced beings of Aryan origin. It was the Nazi goal to cooperate with these beings, obtain from them occult knowledge and create a race of supermen of Aryan stock to exterminate all inferior races and take over the world.

This Hidden World is illuminated by a pallid Black Sun which gives off energetic radiations in the form of VRIL. Whoever possesses VRIL controls the world. The Nazis believed that VRIL could be harnessed for the purposes of greatly enhancing the human race physically and mentally, and could also be used in the manufacture of advanced weaponry."

While we're no longer dealing with the Nazis or Illuminati in this era, what we can take from this is that Vril has been around longer than we think as well as those who are capable of utilizing the energy. All of these advances races - whether extraterrestrial or not - are considered Agarthans. Here is a short excerpt from a website explaining the told legends of the Old Race.

The Old Ones - In an article entitled 'The Hollow Earth: Myth or Reality' for Atlantis Rising, Brad Steiger writes of the legends of 'the Old Ones,' an ancient race that populated the surface world millions of years ago and then moved underground. 'The Old Ones, an immensely intelligent and scientifically advanced race,' Steiger writes, 'have chosen to structure their own environment under the surface of the planet and manufacture all their necessities.'

'The Old Ones are hominid, extremely long-lived, and pre-date Homo sapiens by more than a million years. The Old Ones generally remain aloof from the surface peoples, but from time to time, they have been known to offer constructive criticism; and it has been said, they often kidnap human children to tutor and rear as their own.'

http://www.tokenrock.com/explain-Agartha-195.html

It doesn't need to be said that the Agarthans could not take others as part of their own. When we look at one of these ancient zombies, can you tell that they are pretty humanoid for the most part?

These kinds of zombies only spawn when either in the Crazy Place or activating 115 conversion generators. To better understand the relationship between the realm and the real world, let's take a look at some radio logs.

When I awoke this morning, I learned of mysterious events that took place during the night. Men working on the installation of the generators, reporting seeing ancient figures emerging from the mount. I would doubt their story, but for the fact that by morning, many of the men were either dead or missing.

Now if that doesn't satisfy you to believe that these ancient zombies can pop out virtually anywhere, let's look at another radio log:

The conversion process creates localized energy fields which appear to function as portals, bringing forth objects of indeterminate origin.

The keyword here is "portals". You will see a glowing, white hole in the ground where the ancient zombies jump in from. If you go into the Crazy Place, however, they jump down from the ceilings/megaliths rather than portals. Therefore, these zombies that "pop out" on Earth are actually jumping through portals from the Crazy Place. To assume that the ancient zombies are actually ancient Agarthan zombies and that they "originate" from the Crazy Place, we can fairly assume that the Crazy Place is at least a component/subsidiary of Agartha.

We've learned many instances in Origins now, and how things are interceding one another. But I can tell that you're not satisfied yet. Now what if I told you something that would ultimately solve the paradox? This is now the time for Maxis to join us.

The Light From Above

This is it. Literally, this is the answer to the paradox. A light? Some clouds? A sky? No no no, think a bit harder. Once you free Samantha from Agartha (in our little eyes, a different level higher than the Crazy Place), the sky has opened up. Here, it gets a bit tricky. How can the same sky that comes from the outside we were at when above ground suddenly appear overhead in a realm that is supposedly deep within the Earth? The answer is actually more simple than you think.

This is the gateway to Agartha.

Pick up that jaw off the ground! I need to show some proof before I can make such a ludicrous claim, correct? The Crazy Place is a different realm of time and space. We can travel to and from it without disturbing it...or so we though. The only way to open this gateway is by placing down the ancient staffs (well, replicas really) and releasing the energy from within the Agarthan zombies. I theorize that the energy released from them is actually the same energy we run unto several times through the story of Zombies - Vril. With the power of the staffs and essence of Vril, Agartha is opened up before our very eyes.

This is where we release the Maxis Drone into the air. We may have released Samantha, but now he must go to her. But how does going into the depths of Agartha mean anything if we freed her from that realm? What many of us missed is that Maxis never said anything else about Agartha. Rather, he said "I must go to her now". The only way he can do that is if the paradox is solved.

So that leads us to the final conclusion: what happens as Maxis enters the gateway, and how exactly does he solve it? Believe what you can out of what I am going to say. The gateway to Agartha...is the teleporter. Keep in mind that before you can actually end Origins, you must access the teleporter in the middle of the Crazy Place. This teleporter can fully travel through time and space regardless of where the next set point is going to be. That new point was Origins.

Did you see what happened? You just became conflicted with the paradox. Samantha's intervention in the Origins we know greatly disturbed the space-time continuum in Zombies, causing everything in that point in history to shift and awaken the Ancient Evil. Once we released Samantha from her dimensional prison, we then used the gateway to Agartha to go into a time where Samantha was not present - that time being the true Origins.

Look back at the table a good number of scrolls ago. The Origins we are now present in post-Easter Egg is what actually happened in history. That means there weren't any zombies or giant robots or ancient evils or body-less Maxis or anything. It was just a research operation that discovered element 115 for the first time in recorded Zombie history. We re-wrote the past that was altered from the original. That, my dear friendos, is the solution to the paradox.

I understand that there are many flaws within this theory, as I would expect nothing less of such a large idea. Nevertheless, I am very open to ideas that may prove/oppose this theory with evidence supporting such claims.

I do indeed hold certain ideas for how this could have affected the cutscene dramatically, but I'll let you guys think about that on your own. Just know this: if Maxis did truly enter Agartha to rewrite history, then what does that make of him after seeing what happened in Buried's Side Mission? You should know what I'm getting at here.

[Dub Zee]

Thats alot of well thought out information

this whole paradox thing still isnt sitting right with me, the whole point of origins is full of uncertainty.

The crazy place i believe is the Aether, which wasn't discovered by Maxis and Richtofen till WW2. Which is why there is no mention of the Aether in Origins and is why its called the "Crazy Place". (We as the players are the first to go there, Maxis never did)

That said the paradox is mentioned alot.

However if Origins is the Paradox, then the end sequence is basically saying nothing has changed, nothing is resolved, Maxis still HAS A PLAN.

or

Is (post) Origins the Paradox (W@W + BO1 + 2), in which case the Easter egg in Origins Fixes it, but as above, Things still continue on the set path with the truth right in front of us.

or

Are We the Players the REAL paradox, we have been travelling through time itself (and possibly dimensions) as the Original 4, We are the "HEROES". We have always been there when a zombie outbreak occurs, are WE the paradox that needs fixing?

Tank

Takeo

Nikolai

Richtofen.

We are immortalized are revered icons in the Room under PaP, Without US the original 4, most of this wouldn't of happened. Should we be dead? and the fact that we aren't has in turn created the Cycle?

I have my own personal belief on another thread, Alpha and I (among many others) share the same thoughts on Origins.

The 3 examples are all possible, but at the same time, not quite. If there was no Easter Egg end cinematic, i believe most of this wouldn't even be thought of. classic misdirection to keep us thinking for another year

[InfestLithium]

If Origins is a paradox and it is rewritten with its true history, then it makes the ending cutscene viewed differently. It's kind of hard to explain how, but think of it this way: Maxis (in Buried) finally becomes omnipotent. It might be possible that by releasing Samantha from Agartha in Origins, there is a moment in time where he snaps as a result of going through time. This of course means that a small event occurred and Maxis knew exactly what to do. Going through Agartha may have resulted in history being leveled out and him telling the story of Zombies to Samantha in the future.

That itself is a very flawed explanation, but it's why I didn't include it in the original post; it wasn't what the theory was revolved around. This reason only allows us to see that the story actually loops within itself up until Origins. Maxis retells the true story to Samantha [leaving out tidbits of course], in which she "plays" out the story but causes the story's ending (Origins) to be tweaked. This may be because to Maxis, Origins was nothing more than a research opportunity. Origins in Samantha's eyes, however, would create a different outcome in which the heroes "save" her. It's nothing but a cycle that continues on until broken.

[ETEl2NAL407]

Here's what I agree with:

Samantha being present, in any form, during the timeframe for Origins is a paradox.

No matter how you try to rationalize that fact, she was not yet in existence at that time, therefore she could not be present even in a metaphysical sense.

If she is travelling through time, but has no physical body to inhabit and can only influence events through "speaking" (how can someone speak without a physical mechanism capable of transmitting sound waves, i.e. vocal chords, synthesized oscillator?) any action she influences would result in a paradox because the natural flow of time would be disrupted, thus the very set of events that led to her existence naturally may never have ocurred. If she never came into existence by actions of her own, the actions she took to do such would be rendered impossible.

Any time people have meddled in past events that affect their present or future in some way, the irony (not known to them as they're acting) is that their actions actually work to ensure their existence and don't change anything, but instead make the inevitable true.

Samantha being released from Agartha in 1918 is a paradox because she would have nowhere to exist once released. This does not necessarily mean it didn't happen because she could have been released into non-existence or, in other words, the act of releasing her effectively killed her.

This is a bit like the end of the film 'Looper' in which a man is sent back in time to be killed by his former self, but his former self fails. The older version of this man hunts down a child, thinking this child's death will change the course of his personal history. The younger version of the man intervenes as he sees that the act of his older self hunting this child is what caused the child to affect his history negatively. The solution which the younger man uncovers is to kill himself so that his older self ceases to exist and the act which caused the child to affect things negatively doesn't ocurr.

In an example like this, freeing Samantha could have ocurred and the act of freeing her kills her, but there is one huge problem with this being the fact:

The cutscene that follows.

In the cutscene she is not dead, but alive and enjoying a game with a friend of hers. So, if she could not have been freed at Origins through reality due to the MANY paradoxes such an act would create, the only plausible explanation that remains is that she was imagining Origins.

Some would argue that Origins was the ONLY map she was imagining, but if it weren't for the dialogue between her and Eddie in the cutscene, I would agree with them. However, Eddie is promised to "have a turn" at the game they're sharing and he alludes to gameplay elements that we have actually seen, suggesting that this child's game encompasses more than just Origins. If we follow that explanation, it's simple to arrive at the conclusion the entirety of Black Ops Zombies was all a game between two children. No paradoxes, no further explanation needed, clean, neat, case closed.

The real story is just beginning and that's what is happening in the background of these childrens' world. Sirens? Locking of windows? A plan from her Father? Making everything OK?

We need to stop trying to tie this cutscene back to things which have already ocurred because they never actually ocurred.

[MysteryMachineX]

Very good job, Infest. Your theory is very similar to mine. So I won't go too in-depth, as we are both in agreement.

But three things I disagree on. One, the Mob of the Dead Perks. I believe the reason they flicker is because of the intervention of the controller, and that is why those Perks (AND ONLY THOSE PERKS) ever flicker, as nothing displaced in Origins flickers.

Also, I think the zombies in the Crazy Place are Agarthan zombies. Vril-Ya were always said to be humanoid. But not actually human. That description fits these things perfectly.

Lastly, I think there are four realms of existence: our universe, Agartha, Aether, and the Crazy Place. The reason is because we enter the Crazy Place but we THEN have to open the gateway to Agartha. So by transitive logic you can see that the Crazy Place is not part of Agartha. I think of the Crazy Place like immigration. Samantha even said the ancients "found a way to bridge the void". Any Doctor Who fan knows the void is the "stuff" in between dimensions. I think the Crazy Place is the bridge.

In the long run, minor discrepancies. Good work, Infest!

[GRILL]

Very nice, Festo. I really don't think that you are over-thinking this, in fact, you've simplified it.

We need to stop trying to tie this cutscene back to things which have already ocurred because they never actually ocurred.

That is an assumption by you. We don't need to stop anything, in fact, I think we need to theorize better, harder, faster, and stronger.

Lastly, I think there are four realms of existence: our universe, Agartha, Aether, and the Crazy Place. The reason is because we enter the Crazy Place but we THEN have to open the gateway to Agartha. So by transitive logic you can see that the Crazy Place is not part of Agartha. I think of the Crazy Place like immigration. Samantha even said the ancients "found a way to bridge the void".

Yup, to me, The Crazy Place is just an airport. I don't consider it part of Agartha, because, it would have to be much more expansive. Agartha isn't just a room, it's a realm, a dimension. Something as large and expansive as Earth. If it was Agartha, they would have named it "Agartha" and not "The Crazy Place". Clearly Maxis knew of Agartha, so he wouldn't need to beat around the bush.

[DeathBringerZen]

Well done on a very enlightening thread Infest, but I still cannot agree with it.

Why is the Panzer toy and and the Giant Robot in Samantha's bedroom in the sequence? It is because they were a part of the game that was being played by Samantha and Eddie, and that is why they featured in the map itself. The bedroom features items and references from all previous maps. Why are they all there and why is the 04 and N4 in toy form in her bedroom? How can they go from being toys to being real? What about the Golden Rod, Monkey Bomb, posters etc?

We cannot ignore the blatancy of what is in the sequence. Fair enough if it only had Origins and MotD memorabilia, but it did not. All previous maps were covered.

I appreciate the time and effort you put in, and after Jimmy's latest tweet, I am starting to think Treyarch will buckle, and alter whatever their plans were for the next zombie outing to correct this error on their part so as to suit the masses, but I still feel the ending is exactly what we originally perceived it to be, and will only not be if they choose to change it.

[MysteryMachineX]

We cannot ignore the blatancy of what is in the sequence. Fair enough if it only had Origins and MotD memorabilia, but it did not. All previous maps were covered.

Instead you choose to ignore every single little aspect of zombies in every fashion ever established by the series ever.

The only reason people perceive the ending as being just a game is because the average zombies player watched a video on youtube about it without actually playing the game, without actually getting to that point, without actually arriving to that moment. In ANY series of media, if you take the final words out of context, it will make no sense. And the "it's just a game" faith does just that. It does not account for the final words spoken nor anything besides the cutscene itself.

Treyarch put a lot of work into Zombies, and they risked a lot by putting this cutscene in. However, video games are a work of art. They truly are. They chose to risk public opinion for the sake of art, and that is a risk that was worth taking.

Good job, Treyarch. I particularly loved the whole "cycle" idea that's been used repeatedly in pretty much every BOII map leading up to this.

[DeathBringerZen]

Instead you choose to ignore every single little aspect of zombies in every fashion ever established by the series ever.

No, I choose to take the sequence at face value, and having studies the end sequence several times over, I just cannot take anything else from it unfortunately.

This is not me saying I am right are wrong though, just giving my opinion on it.

The only reason people perceive the ending as being just a game is because the average zombies player watched a video on youtube about it without actually playing the game, without actually getting to that point, without actually arriving to that moment.

I am assuming this is in the same lines as the snide remark you make towards me in another post? You know... the "If you believe it is just the imagination of a child, you should not be playing zombies"?

I have played this game mode just as long as you have, and put just as much time into figuring out the story and all the secrets within as you have, so stop trying to belittle everyone who does not agree with you. I am FAR from being "the average zombie player", and I barely use Youtube. Certainly do not watch much zombie stuff on there.

I think they 'copped out' with the ending, and until the next game comes out, I am probably going to stick to this opinion. I enjoy seeing peoples take on it though, and encourage people to look for more from it. If infests thought turn out to be correct, then I will be glad, because I do not want to see everything we have come to know and love as being nothing more than the imagination of a child.

No matter what you or anyone else says on it though... only time will tell if I or we are right or wrong.

[MysteryMachineX]

I simply mean that it is a fact that most people were predisposed to the ending cutscene with none of the backstory or work of the journey to the end. Whether it be watching a leaked video on youtube or even once they were finally released. The percentage of people who actually did the Side Mission out of those who saw the cutscene is incredibly small. It is not impossible to think that a bias has resulted from it, no different than watching the last few minutes of the latest epic in a series of movies. I am sorry if you perceive my comment to be directed at you in particular, but it was actually directed at a multitude, i.e. "people", which is why I chose to use that word.

[K3ys3r S0z3]

I will say this is all well thought out but going back on my post in the general discussion it seems like this was the plan all along. I thought this was all a cop out ending but after playing Kino and seeing the perk bottles on the table and they O4 toys on the ground in a play set, it seems this was their idea all along. And I hope they dont go back on the story. They need to start over and start a new fresh story.

[DeathBringerZen]

I simply mean that it is a fact that most people were predisposed to the ending cutscene with none of the backstory or work of the journey to the end. Whether it be watching a leaked video on youtube or even once they were finally released. The percentage of people who actually did the Side Mission out of those who saw the cutscene is incredibly small. It is not impossible to think that a bias has resulted from it, no different than watching the last few minutes of the latest epic in a series of movies. I am sorry if you perceive my comment to be directed at you in particular, but it was actually directed at a multitude, i.e. "people", which is why I chose to use that word.

Fair enough, I see your point now, but I still feel that you are viewing people negatively if they choose to take the sequence as a foregone conclusion.

Again though, I am only taking it for what I assume it means because of the fact that most previous maps (if not all) seem to be covered in some shape or form in the bedroom, and then there is of course the characters we either played as, or went up against appearing in the bedroom also, but in toy form.

I could get past it if it was just the O4, as they were seen as just military toys, so did not necessarily have to be the 04, but the N4 were shown much more clearly, and we got to see their faces on the toys, as well as the bus!

It was clearly them, so what does this mean? They genuinely exist in one reality, but only exist in toy form in another?

[Boom115]

This was perfect and extremely well explained. Good on your sir. The tidbit I would disagree is the crazy place. My understanding of the aether is that it is command central; and I doubt Ric and Sam are fending off hordes whilst overseeing the apocalypse. I believe its on a different plane, a sort of purgatory realm. Now my understanding of the storyline is not as in depth as others on the site; but do we think brock and gary also gained access to the crazy place? If so what happened to them, im sure they were not equipped for the argarthan zombies.

[InfestLithium]

Thanks for the comments, critique, and corrections friendos! What started as a little thought bubble at work turned out to be such a monolithic research frenzy last night. I'm glad that you guys got a chance to read my crazy writing and voice your opinions on it.

MMX: Whoops, I kind of jumped the gun with the 115-displacement ordeal. I meant to say that it was similar in the sense where removing things (or in Origins' case, adding things) that don't exist in the respective timeline cause a distortion. Mob of the Dead was only a minor displacement since Lucifer indeed took actual objects from the future and blatantly wedged them into an era where they were not actually invented yet save Electric Cherry.

Origins, however, brought us Samantha in an era where she did not exist, did not belong, and - as Eternal put nicely - did not even have so much as any physicality to her yet she was in the realm of Agartha. That's a enormous distortion if I've ever heard of one.

Eternal: Kudos for an in-depth of the paradoxical perception! See how much more would happen should the paradox remain unsolved? It does create a great deal of conflict when considering the final cutscene. If you see it as saying "hey we have no problems anymore because we know that we're on regular ground for once", then that's okay. I'm just trying to offer an alternative perspective based on the paradox.

DeathBringerZen: Consider what you will about calling Zombies a child's game or not. I simply made the stance on what the paradox was and how it can remotely affect what we believe the cutscene to portray. I am a firm believer of a cycle playing a major key in this scenario. At the same time, it's relatively easy to just take what we want to see and go the easy way out. I'm not saying you're wrong at all. My guess is as good as your or anyone elses.

I totally understand how it comes to that particular viewpoint. I agree if certain objects and references were not in the cutscene, everything would have panned out to be much smoother and there wouldn't be this much trouble over the validity of the Zombies universe. I actually didn't take too much heed to Jimmy Z's tweet because I honestly didn't want to base a whole theory off of some text he wrote that is actually quite vague if you think about it. It is very well possible that this is all nothing but a game. What I theorize, however, was the idea of it not being a game but at the same time, led to it because of the paradox. This in turn would cause some kind of cycle to continue.

The only question we'd have to ask is who is the real omnipotent being - Samantha, or Maxis? [i include Maxis because if he went through the gateway to Agartha, could he have told Samantha the Zombies story given that he would somehow be omnipotent as well when in Agartha?]

Grill: Thank you! I jumped the gun a great deal when discussing the relationship between Agartha and The Crazy Place. I meant to say that The Crazy Place was a sub-component of Agartha. But I like the idea of an airport/bridge, as that is what I now believe it to be. Thanks to everyone who pointed that out. My mistake!

Keep those posts commin', friendos! I really appreciate the time and effort you all put into your comments. :)

[MysteryMachineX]

Infest, I'm confused as to how you think we get back to the "normal" timeline where Origins didn't happen. My explanation is that Samantha became god-like with power. I think there are themes throughout the games to imply this, such as the Archangel song. ("I am the end like an archangel") But what is your explanation?

[InfestLithium]

The way I'm looking at it (bear with me), the only way to solve the paradox was to go to a time where Origins did not exist, but did to some extent. In the "new" Origins, Group 935 excavated the site and found Element 115. There weren't any zombies going after them, and they did not create giant robots. Samantha was no longer in this era and history just smoothly flowed onward since then.

Now the how explanation on this is the gateway to Agartha. Whomever resides in that dimension must be omnipotent. Samantha is a soul within the realm during Origins and she can reach out to everyone in Origins. Heck, she even knows all about them - their background, their full names, their way of life. She can directly talk to only one character so make guilt of so they can help free her.

When finishing the Easter Egg, the Maxis Drone must pass through the gateway. This means that Maxis must go into the realm of Agartha. He too does not have a technical physical body, and going into Agartha would seemingly make him omnipotent as well since we just got done releasing Samantha from Agartha. While it's quite difficult to reason how he could magically become omnipotent without further proof, I keep looking back at Buried in which Maxis does become omnipotent from the Side Missions. There seems to be a trigger when passing through Agartha that fully allows him to become omnipotent and set the record straight.

The light we see in The Crazy Place's ceiling is the very same light we see outside when we look up. I personally believe that this was an allusion to us "returning" back to the map but subtracting all that we've encountered. Maxis, now being omnipotent in Agartha, rewrote history so the events in our Origins didn't occur. This would cause him to be in his regular body still and the cycle of Zombies to continue with a few setbacks.

The cutscene is also very hard to explain as well. Part of me wants to believe that Samantha has this oddly fuzzy memory of the Zombies universe yet she can't really claim that it's real, so she plays out the story with a boy named Eddie. It turns out that what she thinks is a little game is actually what occurred but she doesn't understand that because her memory is not in tact. This explanation comes with the essence behind being omnipotent. I'll try to make some more sense of it later on, sorry for the confusion haha.

[DeathBringerZen]

DeathBringerZen: Consider what you will about calling Zombies a child's game or not. I simply made the stance on what the paradox was and how it can remotely affect what we believe the cutscene to portray. I am a firm believer of a cycle playing a major key in this scenario. At the same time, it's relatively easy to just take what we want to see and go the easy way out. I'm not saying you're wrong at all. My guess is as good as your or anyone elses.

I totally understand how it comes to that particular viewpoint. I agree if certain objects and references were not in the cutscene, everything would have panned out to be much smoother and there wouldn't be this much trouble over the validity of the Zombies universe.

I like your own interpretation of how it could be a paradox, and I am not completely ruling out you or MMX's theories on the events we see, but as you said, the bedroom is littered in stuff from every map, and it is all laid out perfectly so that it can be perceived as being the inspiration behind Samantha's game, if this is the case.

All the items feature in her game because they are all within her sights, so she can then use them in her story.

THIS is why I cannot look past the most obvious of answers. There was not much within the sequence to confirm it being anything else, and the way the camera pans around the room showing it all is almost like they wanted us to know that all the maps are inspired by the contents of the room.

The Tranzit crew and bus being shown and the Golden Rod and Staff in the corner, as well as the Panzer and Giant Robot toy was enough to convince me.

Still, regardless of this, I still love seeing peoples takes on it, and although MotD showed us that cycles and paradoxes are a part of the story, the ending did not really show enough to convince me that this is the case here.

Still, both of you put up a strong case, and if I am honest, I would love for one or both of you to be right here, because I felt violated and offended by the sequence, and sincerely hope it is NOT what I think it was.

[LJx19]

I have a few questions as I think it would help the players like myself understand more.

1) What is agartha? From what I've seen and read, agartha is supposed to be a physical world that simply exists beneath the crust of the world we see. Is this right? If so why must there be some form of omnipotent power there?

2) What religion/mythology are we taking this "lucifer" from? Where is he getting this power from?

3) What is the aether? Is it a location? Is it a substance? From what I can understand the aether is supposed to be likened to newtons idea of the "luminiferous aether" which is what exists all around us and whatever is in this aether(in zombies) would be in complete control of space. If this is so, what role does this truly play when we consider 4:

4) Who and what is Eddie? Who/what is Edward richtofen? Are they separate personalities/souls/existences? Are they the same? Do they even exist? And if so how is it possible for them to have influence (if they do) in these events. Because as it stands, IF this person exists, and IF he was at one point actually in control of the aether, THEN how can we take what has now happened in origins as any fact? Now this will bring me to the next point...

5) IF origins ties into the storyline of all the maps before it, and majorly including buried, WHY were we even given separate endings (and as a matter of fact) why did we have to run around as these people establishing towers for two bodiless voices. When the ultimate end makes one side completely pointless?

6) Paradoxes in time, yes I understand the concept but contrary to the thought, the grandfather paradox can still neither be proven nor disproven but the majority of theoretical physicists agree that if you go back in time and kill your father you will cease to exist. The only way this can be argued against is by inserting a multiple universe theory. Is that what we're now dealing with if so?

That's all I have to ask for now, otherwise good job.

[MysteryMachineX]

Infest, I hope you don't mind if I try to answer those questions. Feel free to also give your own answers if you desire.

1) What is agartha? From what I've seen and read, agartha is supposed to be a physical world that simply exists beneath the crust of the world we see. Is this right? If so why must there be some form of omnipotent power there?

Agartha was the name adopted as the habitat for the Vril-Ya, which were an ancient, advanced race. They were first detailed in VRIL: Power of the Coming Race. The term Agartha was only used later. Keep in mind there is a difference between fact and legend. For example, the legend could be stretched or misconstrued. If someone found a "hole" in the ground underneath the Earth that led to Agartha, they might've thought Agartha lay underground instead of the other possibility: it being a wormhole to Agartha. The Vril-Ya are not omnipotent. What they are exactly is left up to imagination with only a handful of facts to help guide us.

2) What religion/mythology are we taking this "lucifer" from? Where is he getting this power from?

Treyarch seems to have combined a bunch of religions. They're Christian references, Greek references, Native American references, and many more. And the being you are referring to seems to be a being residing within the Aether, which is full of ethereal energy.

3) What is the aether? Is it a location? Is it a substance? From what I can understand the aether is supposed to be likened to newtons idea of the "luminiferous aether" which is what exists all around us and whatever is in this aether(in zombies) would be in complete control of space.

That's another definition of the word Aether. Aether in this context is another realm, as in, another dimension. It is said to be the place between life and death. So yes, it is a location outside of our universe. It has laws of physics that are completely different to ours. One thing that makes the Aether so immense and terrifying is that we cannot even begin to understand exactly how it works. All we know is the result, like controlling zombies and bending space.

4) Who and what is Eddie? Who/what is Edward richtofen? Are they separate personalities/souls/existences? Are they the same? Do they even exist? And if so how is it possible for them to have influence (if they do) in these events. Because as it stands, IF this person exists, and IF he was at one point actually in control of the aether, THEN how can we take what has now happened in origins as any fact? Now this will bring me to the next point...

This question is more particular and less related to fact and more theory. I will employ my own theory to answer this question. I believe that Eddy is a friend that Samantha created for herself in the divergent timeline based on the memories that she had diminished. When she created the new timeline, everything that was to her just because a game, nothing more than toys on the shelf. Edward however was a big part of her life, and she used that to make a friend out of him. I do not think there are many viable alternatives for a connection between Eddy and Edward.

5) IF origins ties into the storyline of all the maps before it, and majorly including buried, WHY were we even given separate endings (and as a matter of fact) why did we have to run around as these people establishing towers for two bodiless voices. When the ultimate end makes one side completely pointless?

It doesn't make it pointless, well, that depends on your opinion of "point". For example, I could choose to have chicken or pancakes for lunch tomorrow. 20 years later, in the long run, in the grand scheme, is it going to matter whether I had chicken or pancakes? The option of the towers was important at the time. In the grand scheme, not so much. But at the time, they were. Infest and I both believe the maps are/were in a cycle, that they repeat over and over. The endgames for Richtofen and Maxis show us what would/could happen if they got control. And in a weird timey-wimey fashion, they do. But then time re-writes so neither happens. So it doesn't matter who gets control, because time is rewritten to prevent it. It's for the best really. Maxis and Richtofen were terrible at their jobs. It is almost like a "what if" scenario that actually played out.

6) Paradoxes in time, yes I understand the concept but contrary to the thought, the grandfather paradox can still neither be proven nor disproven but the majority of theoretical physicists agree that if you go back in time and kill your father you will cease to exist. The only way this can be argued against is by inserting a multiple universe theory. Is that what we're now dealing with if so?

We are always dealing with a multiple universe theory. Is it true in this game? Yes. It it true in real life? Yes. (Well, no, we don't know the answer to that. However, accepting the possibility sure makes the time travel easier to manage.) Time travel is impossible, therefore there are many theories on how it works. The multiple, divergent timeline theory is quite suitable for Zombies. This theory states that everything that be given a choice or chance diverges the universe into multiple timelines. This is where people can over-think things. I mean, sure, there could be an alternate timeline where Richtofen chose to become a stripper. However, that's not really story-relevant, so we can leave that out.

[LJx19]

Thanks alot MMX, now I'll inquire some more.

8) If the events leading up to and/or causing the cycle in our whole scenario was brought upon us by Sam first having contact with the MPD (which was when she gained control of the aether). Why is it that Richtofen doesn't get the same magnitude of power that she does? What makes her so important?

9) The way origins is set up, it seems like buried's endgame continued into this. That maxis, through now having full control of the aether, not only controls space but also time. Does this make sense? Could he have been the one to remove Sam and place her in agartha, distort time and through doing this the ultimate end and destruction of everything he told the N4 had just been him forewarning them that he was literally about to break time and reality? Could maxis have been the true mastermind?

10) Lastly if this is so, might there also be a map where we see a similar event from richtofens point of view?

I must say I suddenly feel as if that maxis idea in #9 seems a viable explanation as to how Sam could have been dragged out of richtofens body on moon and launched into the past.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

It should also be said that the four staffs are also symbolic of the four's future torchures...

Red: Rage: Tank Dempsey

Blue: Fear (of remembering): Nikolai

Yellow: Imbalance of the mind: Takeo

Purple: Insanity: Richtofen

All of these madnesses are implied by element 115 tests and vrill-pyramids...

[InfestLithium]

Thanks alot MMX, now I'll inquire some more.

8) If the events leading up to and/or causing the cycle in our whole scenario was brought upon us by Sam first having contact with the MPD (which was when she gained control of the aether). Why is it that Richtofen doesn't get the same magnitude of power that she does? What makes her so important?

9) The way origins is set up, it seems like buried's endgame continued into this. That maxis, through now having full control of the aether, not only controls space but also time. Does this make sense? Could he have been the one to remove Sam and place her in agartha, distort time and through doing this the ultimate end and destruction of everything he told the N4 had just been him forewarning them that he was literally about to break time and reality? Could maxis have been the true mastermind?

10) Lastly if this is so, might there also be a map where we see a similar event from richtofens point of view?

I must say I suddenly feel as if that maxis idea in #9 seems a viable explanation as to how Sam could have been dragged out of richtofens body on moon and launched into the past.

8) It's because Samantha never gained full control upon entering the MPD. She had to build up her powers over a span of decades. Plus, she was bent on rage after seeing her father die before her very eyes. That totally overrides the original controller of Zombies to some extent. Besides, compare 60+ years of experience versus 20 years.

9) I believe Buried lead to Origins in some way, but I don't think Maxis would purposely remove Samantha and place her in Agartha just to have her freed. Remember that Maxis said he needed to open the Rift so he could save his dear daughter. That means she was already in there prior to Buried.

10) It could be possible, but I wouldn't count on it. Richtofen's view is fine the way it is based on what he manages to accomplish as his final Side Mission. He has gained just about maximum power as an omnipotent being. There is still something that he's missing, however, so he isn't 100% satisfied just yet.

Also, thank you MMX for answering those. :)

[GameChanger]

Absolutely incredible post. It totally beats my lame "hurr hurr it was a non-canon game played by Sam and Edward" theory. At some point during or after Moon Sam was transported into an alternate timeline. But how? Was it Maxis giving her mercy by not making her go through the mangled and bombed Earth? Or did Richtofen need a quick way to get her out of the picture so his Grand Scheme can continue? Either way, just by Samantha crossing timelines messed with the everything. The way I see it, there's pretty much infinite timelines for any event (sorta like a certain AAA game that was released not too long ago..). Sam crossing timelines and being the DE messed with all timelines in a certain way, considering 115 has the power to displace objects/people from their time and space.

Although this is more of an assumption than a theory, I think this is how MOTD got started. Somehow Sam messed with the natural flow of things by being transported, and 115 placed perk machines and weapons from other futures into MOTD. This is why the perks flash. They didn't belong in Mob's timeline (with the exception of Electric Cherry) and the ingredients were already relying on 115, causing the machines to overload and distort. They were taken from other maps and thrown around in Mob. What I don't fully understand is HOW and WHY 115 and Zombies/Perks/Guns got there. Sam simply passing through can't cause all of this, can it? I feel that in THOSE timelines there was already 115 in them, but they needed an ignition to kick it off, and Sam is the ignition. She is the Paradox. As shown in MOTD, her damage can be repaired (breaking the cycle) but we don't know how to FULLY stop her from messing with the timelines. Somehow, the cycle has to be broken. For the next game, let's keep in mind that the Mobsters had to retain their memory on their own and realize what's happening before they could break it. They could've possibly continued the cycle hundreds of times before they remembered.

Jeez, all this talk about timelines and stuff is probably gonna make me say "Constants and Variables'' at the end of every post. Feel free to point out flaws in the theory and alert me to any mistakes I made.

[InfestLithium]

Thank you for the warm comment, gamechanger.

Most people don't favor the alternate/numerous timelines assumption because it's a cop-out for explaining things. For instance, we've been trying to figure when Kino der Toten existed during the Black Ops era compared to the rest of the maps. Lots of people called out the possibility of a 2nd dimension, which soon translated into an alternate timeline. I'm not saying we should not consider it; however, it's only useful as a last-minute resort if we have absolutely no evidence to figure out a time placement.

Maxis couldn't have put Samantha in Agartha for the reason I posted above (#9). Richtofen could have possibly thrown her into their as her punishment since he wanted to rid of her...but then there becomes a problem of how/why she was displaced from being in Richtofen's body to being a spirit in that ancient dimension. I agree that something occurred in which she was practically forced into Agartha due to a distortion in time.

Mob of the Dead's case wasn't so much of a distortion (excluding the presented future perk machines, guns, etc). Rather, it introduced us to the possibility of cycles occurring within Zombies. Remember that MotD happened prior to Samantha being in control of the zombies. While that remains true, I honestly believe you're onto something with that connection. We haven't exactly figured out what happens when we continue/break the cycle and how it reflected the events afterwards. For all we know, the pre-Easter Egg Origins may actually ignite - as you said - the Mob of the Dead we know. All we'd need is a little more evidence and connections to make it a stable reason. Good thinking, friendo! :)

[anonymous]

A truly enjoyable post to read. Here's a post made by @PINNAZ talking about the history of megaliths and astraeoastronomy that we encounter in Origins. A major thing remains unclear to me: What exactly happened to Samantha? How does the place she is trapped in now differs from the place she was during her time in the MPD? It reminds me of how we free Gersch in Ascension, how he describes it as a terrible place and yet a place where 'she' is in power. Perhaps the place Sam is trapped during Origins is the same as the place where she is while in the MPD (the Aether), with the only difference that she isn't in charge/in power anymore? 

 

It's also curious how Samantha says that "we are trapped here", plural. What does she mean?