Canon in the Zombies storyline

[Guest]

I have seen many people across the site debating whether Origins, Mob of the Dead or some other map is canon or not, while canon may not be the correct word as technically any map could be canon I mean if it really happened in the main body of the story. I haven't seen a post dedicated to this discussion and I think their should be one, hence me creating it. As this subject can be heated I think a few guidelines needs to be set. I know rules seem kind of bad, but this is a very difficult subject to discuss and it needs to be done right or else we don't get anywhere.

 

1.) All theories are theories up until there is irrefutable proof. Nothing should be taken as fact unless it is satisfactory or as clear as the fact Tank Dempsey is named Tank Dempsey.

 

2.) Don't ignore plot points to benefit the theories, I know some people do this and can even do it without noticing but try not to forget things which may make the theory incorrect, if you cannot think of an explanation to it say so, people help with theories all the time.

 

3.) Everyone is right, everyone is wrong. You can't argue you are right unless it has irrefutable proof.

 

4.) If a theory has been proven to an extent that it can be believed among a majority, do not disagree with it (within this discussion) though obviously opinions are opinions and if you can disprove it do so.

 

5.) Finally, we are all human and equal. Being mean doesn't get your point across. Obviously, its theorizing so debates exist but when it gets to a level where it is an argument then it is not worth discussing anymore.

 

I think Origins is "canon", it obviously happened because we played it but I think it really was the Origins to our story. They never said anything towards it not being in our story. The map itself has been hinted at since near the beginning. Der Riese, the diorama of toys in Kino der Toten, Agartha. Our story led up to Origins, our story was told in an order so that we could understand how it started. Yes it may retcon things, but its time travel, things can get retconned. The Earth was destroyed in the 60s, yet Call of the Dead happened in 2010, but if that map were to not be canon then the story would turn into a paradox at the point the Earth blew up the moon. But either way, I cant think of a way it retcons things that could not be explained in some way, obviously a big factor to it not being canon is people not wanting it to be as it messes up theories. Well, thats not a good reason really as every new map messes up a theory in some form, thats why they are often altered.

 

 

Thanks for reading and I hope we can really work towards finding the answer to canon in the story. It really isn't nice to see this split down the community about it without both sides trying to look for the answer. Teamwork is the best way of theorizing in my opinion.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Nightmare Voyager

[DeathBringerZen]

The rules you are trying to enforce within the discussion are silly, and is basically you saying "it's my thread, my rules".

[Guest]

No im not, as I said its so that its fair and equal, if you think a rule should be changed just say im not going to control the post I just think some guidelines need to be set up so it doesnt get to heated of a debate. If you dont want to say anything constructive just dont.

[Black Hand Smith]

Motd is Non Canon.

Origins is debatable depending on what treyarch plans or changes

Can confirm though, Black ops 2 zombies was shit. From tranzit to origins

[MysteryMachineX]

I think the rules are fair. You are just trying to prevent future hostility. Is it alright if I just post what I said in the other thread? I'll try to edit it to conform to the rules:

Honestly, the word canon is just a tool to be abused by indignant folks. "Canon" is just used to say whether something does or doesn't "count" to something the person likes. With fictional stories, the term "canon" is often used to simply blacklist a part of the story that the person using it didn't particularly like. For example, many people had their theories of Zombies all figured out, and then Origins came along and ruined it for them. Naturally many of them say that the new part of the story is one that they don't like, or isn't "canon".

It is a lot like playing cards with someone. When your opponent lays down a card that spells your defeat, you shout that that Ace isn't a REAL Ace. That Ace isn't canon! The word canon is like the shouted statement, but the table can be at any position at any time for this statement to be made. Many people weren't really affected by the Ace, and they stand idly by as others argue whether the Ace is canon. Others hinge on the fact it is, and so they embrace. The trick is that you should put your personal feelings aside, and just use common sense to acknowledge that making a statement that the Ace isn't canon is completely ludicrous.

Does that mean the term "canon" has no place? No. While the shouted statement is often ridiculous, it can be valid if your opponent lays down a sticky note with a crude drawing on it, calling it an Ace. How do you know where to draw the line? How are we to determine whether this so-called Ace is an actual "canon" Ace or a sticky note warranting scrutiny? Well we analyze just as if we are trying to confirm whether an apple is red or green. We use empirical evidence and find the truth. Sadly, no matter how supported the theory, no matter how much evidence is found to make a rather simple conclusion, there will always be people who refuse the obvious and shout to denounce the realness of the Ace. You see this in science quite a bit, with more and more people refusing vaccines.

I think almost everything is canon in almost every fictional series. My rule of thumb is that everything is always canon unless it presents an unassailable reason to why it cannot be. Zombies iOS "isn't canon", unfortunately, because we know Richtofen isn't a zombie, and we see him in other media, as a non-zombie. It is unfortunate, but we must put it in a separate pile, in its own sticky note card game. And guess what? In a game where all the cards are sticky notes, it is no longer not real. And that's where alternate universes can be discussed.

[Guest]

Yes I was hoping you would post it as it did raise some good points about what canon is and such, I saw the beginnings of a canon discussion on that other post but since that is not the posts intent I thought it would be better to have a post dedicated to it since I haven't seen one before.

[DeathBringerZen]

No im not, as I said its so that its fair and equal, if you think a rule should be changed just say im not going to control the post I just think some guidelines need to be set up so it doesnt get to heated of a debate. If you dont want to say anything constructive just dont.

 

My point of the rules being silly are down to you trying to restrict what people can and cannot say. For example... Rule 4.You say if a theory has been proven to an extent, then we cannot go against it. This is an instant off putter because I disagree with a lot of theories that people consider to be factual and does that mean if several members say that this is how something went down suddenly I am not allowed to go against them?

 

We don't set rules by any other threads that we make on here, but all of a sudden this one has restrictions? Personally I think that if you want to go down that road then you will put people off from wanting to partake in it. Obviously I don't speak for everyone but I have seen these type of threads before and they never work out. The OP usually get's all pissy at people if they "step out of line".

[Guest]

Dude I have no clue what you are talking about, the rules are so things are kept fair as this is a subject that has divided a lot of people so its important to emphasizes not having arguments. Rule 4 also says dont start disagreeing with it in this discussion unless you can disprove it so theres that.The topic isnt for you to come and complain, I dont care if you dont like the post dont be a part of the discussion, you dont do this on other posts so why start with one that I said is for theorizing in a fair manner? Please dont comment again if it isnt a part of the theorizing, thats all I really want to do not have to have a debate about the post lol

[Slade]

>"Origins isn't canon because I don't like the ending and they retconned events from WaW"

[MysteryMachineX]

DeathBringerZen, while I can see you might have problems with rule 4, I don't think that was his intention. It may seem disheartening to be blacklisted from discussing a topic because of popularity. In fact, I would find it rather abhorrent if I found the majority opinion incorrect and was forced to have my voice quieted. But look at it from Nightmare's point of view. He simply said not in this thread. He wants a mainstream discussion of popular ideas. I think he is just trying to weed out the occasional radical from interrupting conversation with ideas most people think are lunacy. Not saying that they are, just perception. It is very much like how the American government is trying to prevent people from speaking against global warming. Now if you believe in global warming, then that's a very good thing. If you don't though, it is a really bad thing. Fortunately, this thread is not government, so you can still speak about global warming, just in another thread.

 

Although Slade I must admit that is the first time I have seen a Captain Jack Harkness meme. Very amusing. And quite to the point.

[Chopper]

I have never understood why the use of the word canon has become accepted to describe zombie events.

Where did it come from and why is it used?

Sorry for straying from OP but I don't really understand it. Can someone enlighten me?

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Nothing is real because zombies is just a cleverly made connection of codes and pixels that make up images on a screen simulating a fake representation of an apocalyptic future based of the horrors of re-animating the dead. 

[Slade]

@Chopper It's incredibly stupid if you ask me, but I'll try to explain.
Some events from WaW are ignored or re-written (see: retconned) in Origins.
For instance: In Moon / Der Riese, Maxis is perfectly healthy and Samantha is everything to him. But in Origins Maxis says he doesn't have a daughter, and like the other german soldiers, succumbs to the zombie sickness shortly after.  Some folks can't accept the simple fact Treyarch retconned some stuff from the early days of the story to have Origins make sense, so they claim Origins to not be canon.

 

 

@Black Hand Smith @Stop mocking me0 Removed posts for spoiling other games without using the spoiler tag. Make sure you don't forget it next time.

[MysteryMachineX]

To be fair Slade, you may be using a different word (retcon versus canon), but you're guilty of doing the same thing, just in reverse. Instead of saying the new one isn't true, you're saying the old one isn't. I personally come from the belief that they should both, all, be counted. An author has the right to retcon something, but if it isn't explicitly known to be a retcon, how are we supposed to know? And with a company as cryptic as Treyarch, who could blame us for just accepting both meals we've been served?

[Stop Mocking Me0]

If it was really an issue, you could have just asked me to edit in the spoiler tab.... not delete the entire post.... -_-"

[Slade]

To be fair Slade, you may be using a different word (retcon versus canon), but you're guilty of doing the same thing, just in reverse. Instead of saying the new one isn't true, you're saying the old one isn't. I personally come from the belief that they should both, all, be counted. An author has the right to retcon something, but if it isn't explicitly known to be a retcon, how are we supposed to know? And with a company as cryptic as Treyarch, who could blame us for just accepting both meals we've been served?

@MysteryMachineX Not really, you must have misread, MMX. I've explained that the events were retconned in Origins. I never said that means either one isn't true anymore. As you know, retconning happens all the time in fiction. It's pretty much unavoidable when doing a prequel story. So just because an event was retconned in Map X, doesn't mean you can go and conclude from that that Map X isn't canon to the main storyline anymore. Instead, I also believe both versions, pre-retcon and post, should be counted, so I'm pretty sure we're on the same page.

[MysteryMachineX]

So you believe that in A, B isn't true, but in B, A isn't true? If so, then you believe both, just separate, like different incarnations of the same story?

[Stop Mocking Me0]

-Just going to say that was covered in my deleted post-

[Guest]

Well it is a not logical that people think something like Origins isn't canon because it changes things, but to be honest I dont think Treyarch would make it without an explanation, in fact I could come up with many explanations about it but people just seem to want to ignore them. But yeah, retconning can easily happen in a story about time travel. Especially since the stories in a cycle which can happen a bit differently each time. Its a shame nobody ever asked why their were giant robots in WW1 and just excepted it instead of making theories.

 

Also, canon may not be the right word, but thats what everyone keeps calling it which is why I named the post as such. What I basically mean is that events that aren't "canon" didn't happen in the main storyline with the rest of the maps. Can anyone argue why Origins didnt happen in the main storyline? 

Edited March 30, 2015 by Nightmare Voyager

[Stop Mocking Me0]

"I don't think treyarch would make it without an explanation" 

 

-Thrustodine

-Sliquifer

-Paralyzer

-Nuketown explosion

-Perma-perks

-Ray gun M2

[Guest]

"I don't think treyarch would make it without an explanation" 

 

-Thrustodine

-Sliquifer

-Paralyzer

-Nuketown explosion

-Perma-perks

-Ray gun M2

 

Perma Perks are a gameplay mechanic, the buildable weapons could either be built by survivors- as it alludes to Marlton at least designing them or made by blue prints left by 935. Paralyzer is heavily alluded to be made by Michael Faraday- if not whats to say it doesnt make a return and get explained- like the Thundergun. Nuketown? Have you played it on multiplayer? Henry Porter made the Ray Gun, Porters X2 Ray Gun says it all.

[Guest]

This is meant to be a discussion topic to figure out whether Origins/ Mob od the Dead or "canon" or not, so why has it been moved to General Zombies Discussion? Its for research and development.

[Boom115]

This is meant to be a discussion topic to figure out whether Origins/ Mob od the Dead or "canon" or not, so why has it been moved to General Zombies Discussion? Its for research and development.

If you were the one presenting research in the oiriginal post, you would be correct.However, in this thread you have asked others to chime in and give opinions. It is a discussion, not presentation to be debated. I hope that clears it up. Feel free to pm me if you have addiitional questions.

[RedDeadRiot]

Motd is Non Canon.

Origins is debatable depending on what treyarch plans or changes

Can confirm though, Black ops 2 zombies was shit. From tranzit to origins

Confirmskies x2.

Minus the Hells Retriever, that's my shit.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

BO2 zombies weren't all bad. I had some laughs: 

 

 

"I hit my stupid head on a stupid invisible wall..."