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JustSavage05

"TheGiant" Cipher

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Donor
9 hours ago, certainpersonio said:

@Nightmare Voyager @vigiliisgaming 

Some quick thoughts on the twitter cipher there:

  1. It looks like it's upside down text to me, not Cyrillic. Most notably, the "ɥʇɟƃ" seem to be upside down, not cyrillic.
  2. The original tweet has 2 typefaces (bold, not bold) which reminds me of Bacon cipher. The biggest thing against this being a Bacon cipher is that they need to be multiples of 5, which the cipher isn't.

So yeah...I'm going to get back to work on TheGiant now :)

Yeah, someone else mentioned that to me as well - too much like upside down text to not be. That upside down "g" is definitely a Cryllic letter though, which I find odd. But yes - TheGiant Haha

Good job on this @Shootinfish! Very interesting pattern with the 53 - So, what are we trying to prove here? Are we going under the assumption that it is 1) substituted Base64 2) transposed Base64 3) poly-substituted Base64 4) Not Base64 or 5) none of the above?

If it were poly-substituted (Like using the Vigenere to encode) we wouldn't be able to test letter frequency as each letter would be substituted with a different part of TheGiant.

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Donor

I'm wondering the same things @vigiliisgaming; where do we stand right now? Here are some thoughts I've had:

  1. Could it be mono alphabetic? I believe it's possible. Normally I would do an index of coincidence analysis on the text to tell me if it's realistic, but with a base64 alphabet it's uncharted waters. Also, there are only so many ways you can use the keyword with mono alphabetic substitution, and I think we've tried all of them (at least close to it)
  2. Transposed? I think each of have indecently come to the conclusion that this isn't the case. I won't rule out a transposition and subsitition combination, but I think that it would be an increasingly complex cipher. I mean, normally the ciphers are a hard but known entity. A base64 cipher with transposition and substitution is very new territory.
  3. Polyalphabetic? I think this is likely, but also I've tried a lot of the more obvious ways to use it.
  4. Not Base64? I mean, possible but then what the heck would it be? I think we're in agreement that it looks like it's the base64 alphabet, so why not some variant of base64? I'll keep this option open as I search. Maybe something that uses base64 alphabet but doesn't perform the same encipherment process?

Future directions: I was reading an article/blog post that argued that modern ciphers usually operate in binary, and recommended doing everything in binary. It seems like @Shootinfish has pretty much doing this, but I know that I haven't been. 

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At the moment i am trying to work with the least complex system it can be and far as i can tell its  not transposed only Base64.So i have moved on to substituted Base64 which its not looking like either.I have some more tests to do but i have no idea how long there going to take but if they conclude what im feeling right now i will move on and assuming its transposed and then subsitituted Base64

What i am finding difficult right now is understanding how the plaintext is formated when it is deciphered but currently i believe because of the amount of unique characters that its camal case with spaces

I havent really done much with examining frequencys in the different index ranges using sample text of base64 im not sure if that will help or not
 

If its not base64 im guessing if its monoalphbetic and it has 2-4 symbols assigned to every character then it would use a wide range of characters and not many diagraphs, which could be true as some of the other ciphers solved are really cryptic even when in plaintext

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 I may have got this wrong because its confusing can you check it out ?
  
I have chosen the first bitpattern out of the two that i found that goes in all four 6 bit sections 010101

ASCII charaters starting that bitpattern are 

T  01010100
U  01010101
V  01010110
W  01010111

ASCII characters ending with the same bitpattern 010101

U  01010101

That would mean a sequence of character with U at the start and U at the end

|/////////////////U///////////////////////////////////|//////////////UNKNOWN CHARACTER/////|/////////////////U/////////////////////////|
| 01 | 02 | 03 | 04 | 05 | 06 | 07 | 08 | 09 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 |
   0      1    0     1     0     1     0     1      *     *     *      *     *      *      *     *      0     1     0    1     0    1      0    1
|////////////////////////////////////////|                                          |                                         |/////////////////////////////////////| 
 
It doesnt make much sense but if there is a character it fits in the middle bit 9-16

The second bit pattern i found is 010100

ASCII characters starting that bitpattern are

P  01010000
Q  01010001
R  01010010
S  01010011

ASCII characters ending with the same bitpattern 010101

T  01010100

|///////////////////////P,Q,R,S,/////////////////|////UNKNOWN CHARACTER////////|/////////////////T///////////////////////////////////|
| 01 | 02 | 03 | 04 | 05 | 06 | 07 | 08 | 09 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 |
    0    1     0     1     0     0     0    1      *      *     *      *      *     *      *     *     0     1     0     1     0     1     0    0
|////////////////////////////////////////|                                         |                                          |////////////////////////////////////////|

This is slightly more promising but still very sketchy any ideas ? or mistakes you can spot ?

Edited by Shootinfish

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Sorry for triple posting but im not intentionally bumping or spamming

I have another character i have a problem with character uppercase "O" or zero (Its been replaced with 14 on the image below) It features in the same row and there is only one bit pattern that can fit and its one i mentioned above 010101

Dmdchoo.jpg

hZpfiqk.jpg

Base64 just does not seem to work out with characters in the order they are written meaning if its Base64 not only has it been substituted its been transposed as well. So now I am looking at transposed and substituted Base64.im not great at maths but if its just column transposed how many permutations is it ? 8! that is a lot but i suppose we have the keyword TheGiant i will investigate some logical column transpose because TheGiant is not an isogram so you cant put it into alphabetical order unless you set some presedence with the capitals or ignore the capital and lose the t. Whatever is going on with cipher its not standard

 

 

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Donor

@Shootinfish

Post 1: I'm not sure if frequency analysis will help or not either. With the switch from 8-6 bit I'm not sure it'll work well. However, we've already uncovered more consistencies in base64 than I originally anticipated there would be, so it's worth a shot. As for your idea about case, I'm not really sure I understand what you mean, but maybe looking at the cipher encrypted with base64 on DE will help:

  • V2UgaGF2ZSBkaXNjb3ZlcmVkIHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGJlaW5ncyB0aGF0IGNhbiB0cmF2ZWwgYmV0d2VlbiBkaW1lbnNpb25zIHdpdGhvdXQgdGhlIGFpZCBvZiB0aGUgdGVsZXBvcnRlci4K

Post 2: I have not put everything into binary yet (not sure the best way to go about doing it) but I'm going to take your word that the binary you've presented is correct. Assuming that, then I can find no faults in your logic. I do believe analysis like this can help us to see how the cipher is structured, and I want to do one for the base64 side of the text (just like you've done for ASCII) because I think it might help us to better see how the cipher might be "transformed".

Another way it might help is for probable word attack. But frankly this is more of a long shot bc we have no idea where specific words begin and end in the cipher.

Post 3: I'm really not sure how you're concluding that the "O"/zero needs to be U; maybe present it in a different way? I do think that the latter part of this post makes a lot of sense. However, It's something that I feel after rooting around in the cipher for a while, more than I can prove. 

Keep up the good work!

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So I done an analysis on the DE cipher

Spoiler

V2UgaGF2ZSBkaXNjb3ZlcmVkIHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGJlaW5ncyB0aGF0IGNhbiB0cmF2ZWwgYmV0d2VlbiBkaW1lbnNpb25zIHdpdGhvdXQgdGhlIGFpZCBvZiB0aGUgdGVsZXBvcnRlci4K


We have discovered that there are beings that can travel between dimensions without the aid of the teleporter.


Base64 Range 0-15 A-P

B 7
C 1
F 4
G 10
H 2
I 5
J 2
K 1
N 3

Total 35  (9 unique)

Base64 range 16-31 Q-Z a-f

Q 2
R 2
S 1
U 3
V 5
W 3
X 5
Y 3
Z 6
a 6
b 5
c 6
d 7

Total 54 (13 unique)

Base64 range 32-47 g-v

g 6
h 4
i 4
j 1
k 3
l 8
m 4
n 3
o 1
p 3
s 1
v 3

Total  41  (12 unique)


Base64 range 48-63 w-/

w 1
y 1
z 1
0 5
1 1
2 5
3 1
4 1
5 2

Total 18  (9 unique)

 

@certainpersonio I will post more to answer your questions later I just thought I get this posted first

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Post 1: I was still working on the fact that it was substituted only Base64 and couldnt get bitpatterns to line up with lowercase characters and also i was looking at the amount of unique characters and thought maybe frequency analysis of different combinations of formating might show a pattern.

Post 2: Putting everything into binary is a nightmare and i hope someone can come up with another method other than repeating the character three times as this makes the middle two blocks uncertain and you have to bit mask in your head or write it down and then move to another row which makes it time consuming and easy to make mistakes.It is unknown if i have got things correct to draw the assumptions i have because im having to make tests and proceedures from scratch and there is no guidelines apart from Base64 6 bit four block (24 bit)  format and the binary runs from A-z a-z 0-9 +/

Post 3 : I didnt explain myself very well at the begining. The only bit pattern i can find that is in ASCII character range that features in all four 6 bit blocks is 010101. The character (  O ,zero "i have represented as 14" ) features on the same row in the block positions 1 and 3 so that would mean the ASCII starting character must be either T , U , V , W and the middle ASCII character must end 0101 the very last character must start 01 and i couldnt maker anything legiable  


 01 | 02 | 03 | 04 | 05 | 06 | 07 | 08 | 09 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 |
   0     1    0     1     0     1     *      *     *      *      *     *      0    1     0      1     0    1      *     *     *     *     *      * 

I think Uup May work but thats a long shot and only ever seen that on the The giant chalkboard but try it out i may be wrong.I will also check it out and post my findings.

////////////////////////////EDIT/////////////////////////////////////////////

Uup does not work out because the 8 bit ASCII bitpattern for "p" is 01110000 meaning the 6 bit pattern for it to fit into the third ASCII character would be 110000 and looking at the positions for that bit pattern it features in a first Base64 block meaning the start of it needs to be a 01 or 00 to be valid ASCII character.

6gL3iN2.jpg

 

 

Edited by Shootinfish

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First im sorry about something i just realised and thats the formating might depend on resolution and screen size so if the bitpattern diagrams are all messed that only confuses things(they look ok fullscreen but i dont know on other setups)

Ok i want to go back and concentrate on space again.To recap if it goes in the first ASCII charcter slot then it starts bitpattern 001000 and if it goes at the end of the ASCII character slot it finishes 100000 so thats two bitpatterns to account for.Now next the middle ASCII slot which is more difficult but i think what i have explained in a previous post is right but i repeat the bit patterns

Base64 index characters that can fit in bit 7-12

000010  02  C
010010  18  S
100010  34  i
110010  50  y

Base64 characters that can fit into bit 13 -18

000000  00  A  
000001  01  B

So the limiting factor is only two bitpatterns in block 3 (bit 13-18) but they can match up with any of the four in block 2 (bit 7-12)

So looking at the frequencys the max amount of spaces we can have (im just assigning the highest to the first next highest to the second and so on)

1st block bitpattern  9
4th block bitpattern  7

Now you need to combine two bit patterns to make pairs so i have put 6&6 and 5&5 to make a combined total of 11 making a total of 27
 
Now there are 144 ASCII characters with a maximum of 27 spaces which gives a reasonable average word length (Btw i dont think they are assigned to the frequencys like i have done above but space needs to be assigned to fairly high frequencys to make it viable plaintext with spaces.

Question is do you think it is best firstly to assume it has spaces and will have paragraphs starting with a capital like the DE Base64 cipher

Edited by Shootinfish

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Donor

@Shootinfish Yes, I do believe we can make the assumption that it will match the formatting of the base64 cipher from DE. Statistically there are roughly 75-100 characters per sentence in English, but including spaces we can bump it up to 90-120. With a ASCII length of 144, It might be just one really long sentence with some punctuation, like a comma. Or it could have a particularly short sentence included.

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@certainpersonio There is a problem with that and its something you mentioned before about the unique characters. Being there is 61 unique characters and only 64 bit patterns it doesn't seem logical that it can be just mainly lowercase in fact I'm thinking we need capitals numbers and symbols to make it valid base64. I may be wrong on this and am unsure at this time how to test it

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Donor

@Shootinfish I don't think that's the case. It's not really the individual character that's important, so much as the combination of them all. So in true base64 of normal English text, this pans out with there basically being a limited number of characters that can actually start the block. It does remain to be seen that TheGiant follows this pattern. 

Also, have you guys looked into modern ciphers like DES or AES? I've been thinking they might solve our substitution/transformation problem. I just tried an AES decryptor online, but it just came back with gibberish. Do you guys know of any others out there to try?

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I have read this thread a lot...

And all what @shootinfish tried i have found on the Internet myself....

But I think we all must look upon the keyword... it sure can be a base64

And dont think to much about if they are "i" or "o" or "0"

I try to explain

Make the code like the other de cipher which was base64 and put in letters (and change the letters and numbers i 0 O etc)

"V2UgaGF2ZSBkaXNjb3ZlcmVkIHROYXQgdGhlcmUgYXJllGJlaW5ncyBOaGFOIGNhbiBOcmF2ZWwgYmV0d2VlbiBkaW1lbnNpb25zlHdpdGhvdXQgdGhIIGFpZCBvZiB0aGUgdGVsZXBvcnRlci4K" you get

We have discovered tNat there are�beings NhaN can Nravel between dimensions�without thH aid of the teleporter.
 

No problem to read:

Or delete some letters

V2UgaGF2ZSBkaXNjb3ZlcmVkIHROYXQgdGhlcmUgYXJllGJlaW5ncyBOaGFcmF2ZWwgYmV0d2VlbiBkaW1lbnNpb25zlHdpdGhvdXQgdGhIIGFpZCBvZiB0aGUgdGVsZXBvcnRlci4K

 

Still get

We have discovered tNat there are�beings Nha\�]�[�]ÙY[�[Y[�Ú[Û�åÚ]Ý]ZYÙ�H[\Ü�\���

 

Hope you understand what I mean...

 

maybe just vigenere with the code and then again base64

 

Edit: sry for the "Black "Field...Tried to change ...I copied and paste and there it was...

Edited by Nieno69

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Guest

Is the code you just put, the "we discover their are begins", made up or is that actually part of this cipher?

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Donor

@Nightmare Voyager The "We have discovered that" is a cipher on DE that is in Base64; it's the one that's by Jug. Theoretically we can use it to make some educated guesses about TheGiant Cipher, if it is indeed base64. Or frankly if TheGiant isn't base64 it can help us figure that out too.

@Nieno69 Using TheGiant as the keyword and the base64 alphabet you get:

(Base64 "L") kCmlgFi6 --> (Base64) RhIf+r7N --> (ASCII) Fú¾Í 

(Base64 "i") kCmlgFi6 --> (Base64) RhIC+r7N --> (ASCII) Fú¾Í 

So a straight Vigenere cipher using "TheGiant" as the key isn't the answer. Also, taking the result and converting it to ASCII doesn't get a legible answer either. Is that what you were looking to do?

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@certainpersonio  I dont think we are looking at key expansion sboxs xoring and initalization vectors and AES has a fixed block size of 128 bits meaning you need to work on the hex or binary of what you interpereted the characters into and also would need to hash the key to get it to the right length in short i dont think we dealing with modern secure encryption

We obviously missing something i just dont know what "quick idea has anyone found anything in the DE radio room it would be a logical place to search"

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20 minutes ago, certainpersonio said:

@Nightmare Voyager The "We have discovered that" is a cipher on DE that is in Base64; it's the one that's by Jug. Theoretically we can use it to make some educated guesses about TheGiant Cipher, if it is indeed base64. Or frankly if TheGiant isn't base64 it can help us figure that out too.

@Nieno69 Using TheGiant as the keyword and the base64 alphabet you get:

(Base64 "L") kCmlgFi6 --> (Base64) RhIf+r7N --> (ASCII) Fú¾Í 

(Base64 "i") kCmlgFi6 --> (Base64) RhIC+r7N --> (ASCII) Fú¾Í 

So a straight Vigenere cipher using "TheGiant" as the key isn't the answer. Also, taking the result and converting it to ASCII doesn't get a legible answer either. Is that what you were looking to do?

Yes I dont say it is vingenere... I mean we must look up the key and how to use it...and then encode it with base64

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Donor

@Shootinfish Well, you definitely seem to know what you're talking about! I'll read up on some of this stuff so I can help generate new, better ideas. 

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I wouldn't say I know what I'm talking about but I know little about the key process of AES (The maths is mind boggling for me anyway) but i just don't believe treyarch will use modern secure ciphers there going to choose something that is really labour intensive but more human machine pen and paper style like ADFGX cipher or vic cipher (which still baffles me with modulus addition etc) 

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Donor

I agree with you as well, and certainly history is on your side. Every cipher (to my knowledge) they've given in Zombies has been solvable by hand (but usually online solvers help it along).

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So i have no idea where to run with this today so i am going to start investigating the key TheGiant.I read a recent tweet from ksherwood and he recited the first line of dead again and it made me think of little red riding hood which made me think of the jacob grim and teutonic mythology.Now there is giants in norse Jötunn and i wonder if this will be anything to do with the keyword

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_j%C3%B6tnar_in_Norse_mythology

Now it is more than could be nothing to do with it but i thought i would just post my thoughts

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Im looking over the periodic table cipher and see there are letters discarded :(

intheucelvlvbelvowtheuwauvesiswherehonornsufferns

In the Cell Below The Waves Is Where Honor Suffers

Is this a reference to some sort of prison like Tartarus or reference to ugarthilocus and Amsvartnir

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4 hours ago, Shootinfish said:

Im looking over the periodic table cipher and see there are letters discarded :(

intheucelvlvbelvowtheuwauvesiswherehonornsufferns

In the Cell Below The Waves Is Where Honor Suffers

Is this a reference to some sort of prison like Tartarus or reference to ugarthilocus and Amsvartnir

Wherever the Cell Below the Waves is, all I know is that it is hinting at Takeo's fate, like how the Mountain must be searched for the Frozen One related to Tank.

UVVVUUUNN were all the discarded letters. I feel like they could still mean something.

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@Nightmare Voyager Thanks I was over thinking it a bit and going way to far. I think that that's it for that cipher and the extra letters are just junk I may be wrong but it doesn't seem like anything. I don't like it much  because with longer substituted transposed cipher you could throw letters away which have no sequence to make something fit and not get the true plaintext  I wonder if there is a message about the other two in the unsolved ciphers ?

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1 hour ago, Shootinfish said:

@Nightmare Voyager Thanks I was over thinking it a bit and going way to far. I think that that's it for that cipher and the extra letters are just junk I may be wrong but it doesn't seem like anything. I don't like it much  because with longer substituted transposed cipher you could throw letters away which have no sequence to make something fit and not get the true plaintext  I wonder if there is a message about the other two in the unsolved ciphers ?

I definitely think there is one for Nikolai. But Richtofen is already dead so there won't be one for him.

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