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Maybe we have been looking at WW upgrade all wrong. MUST READ

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Damn. Ragdoll has been doing work, getting dings, tryharding away. Good job man.

So kudos to you RD, but i guess this isn't quite right or there is a variable that you're missing. Because you seem to keep getting the same results, even though others aren't. So double check everything, because you seem to be getting close to it.

See if you can find what makes you get the same results consistently. We appreciate the effort.


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4 hours ago, mmm chocolate said:

might be a dumb question, but has anyone tried to create and upgrade the sword before doing any rituals?

I just realized the symbols seen from the train are there before the PaP room is even open.

You can build them first. I've done that plenty of times.

You cannot currently upgrade the sword until the PaP ritual is done.


In a solo game now. Floyd Cambell. I did the first egg/statue in waterfront, then did the first ritual in waterfront. Then killed the first Margwa in waterfront. I built the AS in waterfront.


The upgraded sword ends in ....eel. ....ahm. Long name.

I usually get Mar-Astagua regardless of where i do what in what order.


Ragdo11, are you completing the sword before the first ritual?

Shield upgrade? (I never do).

Getting, upgrading Trip Mines? Which version?

Edited by 83457
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After reviewing the audio cues so much, I personally don't believe the voice says

Gwanash Na'Orruja Gwanash

Listening to the audio, and reviewing the written words, the voice pronounces "G" silent.

If the voice said Margwa, it would be pronounced Mar Wa, not Marg Wa.

The voice does say Arburgneth WW name(Kor-Maroth / Mar-Astagua / Nar-Ullagua / Lor-Zarozzor) (Sor / Zor) Arbgwoath once you pick it up off the bench. The "G" sometimes sounds like itd be a "K", but never sounds like "Guh".

I definitely do not hear:

"Gwanash" Guhwa Nash / Wa Nash / Kwa Nash

I'm clearly hearing

"Zornash" Zor Nash

Therefore the voice isn't saying Robot ID Gun Robot. That's at least my perspective, and I personally don't think the civil protector has any relevance to upgrading the WW.

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I agree the quote is Zor'Nash Na'orruja Zor'Nash. Definitely not Gwa'Nash.

As far as the name of the Apothicon Servant is concerned. I may not be 100% correct in what actually makes the name. However I do know that I personally never get Lor-Zarozzor or Mar-Astagua. 

With that being said I always get either Kor-Maroth or Nar-Ullaqua. Every game I try to do things differently while keeping some the same. 

What I mean by this is whenever I collect parts for Rituals. I collect them all once I can collect them all in the same Round. Then I'll place all 4 in the order in which I plan on completing them in.

Also I always complete all 4 Rituals in the same Round. At least I try to. I also like to do things on an "Elemental" Round. 

I normally always do the Apothicon Egg before the Rituals. The way I look at is like this.

Basically the Apothicon Servant is going thru a "Developmental Stage". Ragdoll what do you mean, allow me to explain. 

  • Egg
  • Larva
  • Pupa
  • Imago/Adult


Alright so now we've got a list. The cycle of Life If you will.  So first is the Egg. We have an Egg right, right. It just so happens it's name is.

 "Apothicon Egg": The fertilization of an Egg lasts until the Embryo hatches. It goes from a single cell - larva.

"Larva": Lasts from hatching - The Larva Pupates.

"Pupa": Pupation - Eclosion or Construct a Protective Cocoon.




Edited by Ragdo11706
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I'm in a game now as Jessica.

I round skipped to round 15. I did everything needed for rituals (dropped stairs, unlocked pieces, opened doors), turned on perks, and opened egg/sword chamber.

I got my perks and collected the ritual items (canal, junction, waterfront, footlight), keeping the keepers with me. I performed the footlight ritual, turning the keepers into zombies.

I got my egg from rift, and placed it in footlight and fully charged it here. I picked up my egg and ended the round.

Eventually a margwa spawned, killed and collected heart.

Eventually I got xenomatter in footlight.

Finally I got a tentacle in junction.

I built the WW in footlight, and the name is Mar-Astagua. No rituals or egg locations have been completed in this game other then footlight.

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Ok it may very well just be Random. Game to game.I think it has more to do with actions performed in-game. I was just going off the research I had done, on my own time. Again for every action there is an equal yet opposite reaction.

But I know that myself personally normally ends up with Kor or Nar. The swords and the Egg from the Sword are Charcter Specific, meaning the same character will always grab the same Egg & Sword.

Edited by Ragdo11706
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2 tidbits:

1. I did the base sword. When i was about to start the first ritual (my character's), i pulled out the sword at the altar and it said it's little thing. 

The important bit: i could not place the ritual items until it finished talking. Once it did, i could place the items while still holding the sword, so holding the sword wasn't an issue. So that seems like it could possibly mean something. Maybe that consecrates it to your character.

I noticed that i got the Lor Zarozzor, which is closest to Floyd's base sword name. I was Floyd...

Later, i built the AS, pulled out the red sword, it said it's piece and i picked up the AS... With the sword out... Which took all of my guns and points... Again. Yeah, i was tired and f'd it up, but that is really shitty on Trollarch's part. Just put dialog that says that you can't pick it up. Fricken derplords, get a clue as to how to be professional programmers, you've been faking it long enough, maybe it's time to grow up?/end mini rant. :)


Doing the worms at once, versus one at a time: (solo especially, but both).

I have been paying attention to what goes where. Like the order of eggs to player taking them (seen in the new sword thread posted today).

Order of lion's gg placement: each character's gg will be in a different statue.

Order of ritual parts in inventory.

And, for this point, order of worms.

Each worm has a specific holder. I can't prove that this matters, but it may. If you hold all 4 in solo, they will drop into the same one, linked to each ritual part, every time. If you take one at a time, you could put them in all willy nilly, which may be the wrong order.

So, get all 4 worms. Then, with inventory open, watch where each one drops to know which belongs where.

I first thought of this while doing the flag step: depending on which area that you do dictates which Keeper spawns by which worm.

So, by gathering all 4 in solo first, you always put them in the correct place, if this matters at all.


Edited by 83457
Laughing at myself and the derplords
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Yes! This, the gateworms. I hadn't mentioned it before because I couldn't,

A) Confirm it

B) Did'nt think it mattered

However now that you have stated this. I can now say without a doubt the Gateworms are the key. I believe this also has to do with the Shadow Man and the *DING during the Rituals.

I'm pretty certain that you have to do Waterfront or Canals LAST, in order for this to work. The reason being as you said the Basins inside PaP are for a Specific Worm. There order is as follows. 

*Standing at PaP Alter facing PaP*

  • Front Left: Waterfront
  • Front Right: Canals
  • Back Left: Junction/Rift
  • Back Right: Footlight

Now that's the same way they appear on the PaP wall. You know the one with the 4 Symbols that light up after each Ritual, that pertains to a specific character. In the very center of this is Treyarchs logo/way of saying, Apothicon.

Here's an image pulled from with-in the game files, that leads me to believe this. Not too mention the little symbols I made a post about the other day you can find in the Canal District next to each Cocoon location, look very similar to a Gateworm.




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Excellent! I saw that pic yesterday. The key has in-game function, but nobody has seen this key.

The lock from the junction pen box lands on Nero's red circle: i would say that this means nothing, but i never see the locks from the other boxes after they open.

Lastly, I'll double check, but i am quite certain that, on 360 at least, Nero's worm is front right (if you're at pap altar, facing pap).

And on swords: each is character specific, including it's holder in the egg chamber. So the writing we see there may be character specific.

Now, to actually make some progress. We're tryharding, but covering very little ground.


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Haha right. Yea you may be correct on the order, I'll double check as well. I know while playing as Jackie "Fn" Vincent. Whilst placing the worms from time-time he'll say, "You will let me know if I'm doing this wrong won't you."

Also I'm not positive but I feel as if you place the worms (on solo) in the order in which you pick them up in. I cannot 100% verify this. Maybe we should try testing out only grabbing one at a time and placing it. As opposed to grabbing all 4.

I would say starting with Canal or Waterfront would be a good place to start. Meaning that was the final Ritual you completed/gateworm picked up, thus making it the first one you put down.


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On voice cues: usually my characters say the same 2 cues only, but some times they say things that are different, so that must mean that we got them started in the right order.

I would say: place then in the order that you got them, or place them in the order seen in inventory. (Back button). I believe the 'you'd tell me if i was doing this wrong' means that you just put one in the wrong spot, after getting at least one right. This is one of the best recent clues. I find Nero gives the best clues. Even many of the little things he says are true.

Many reddit folk are getting a cue on building it, then getting some kills in pap, as a margwa spawns in. It sounds like (translations vary) 'transform Parasite'.

Another live streamer seems to have caught a cocoon dropping from a margwa 'head'...

No WW grenades involved, they didn't have pap open...

Keep your eyes open for dropped cocoons.

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The dropped cocoons were disproved on Reddit. They are just hunks of flesh that appear after a Margwa has been decapitated and killed. They are not cocoons. Also I am not sure if you gateworms have to be put in a certain order at a certain place. It seems a bit of a stretch to me because the quotes could easily just be normal quotes when placing the gateworms.

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See that's what I was thinking. About him saying the quote about telling me if I'm doing it wrong. I always kind of took that as him breaking the 4th wall, and actually telling me. If that makes any sense.

@Nightmare Voyager knowone knows at this point. To me it's just saying that the "Gateworms" are the "Key". However a lot of other people seem to believe that this is a bump image meaning there's an actual 3d model in the game. I do not know either way.

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4 minutes ago, Nightmare Voyager said:

I think that this bump image thing can just be found on a wall somewhere as a stone scripture saying exactly that, the gateworms are the key.


I am curious though, @83457 what do you mean the lock from the box holding neros pen lands on his circle. Do you mean the Altar or do you mean the actual blood circle. Are you sure it's not from the Summoning key or the Rift/Drop door?!?!

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Just now, Ragdo11706 said:


I am curious though, @83457 what do you mean the lock from the box holding neros pen lands on his circle. Do you mean the Altar or do you mean the actual blood circle. Are you sure it's not from the Summoning key or the Rift/Drop door?!?!


I think he means when you get the crane to drop the box with the pen in it, it will smash it and the lock will fall into the blood circle.

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58 minutes ago, Nightmare Voyager said:

The dropped cocoons were disproved on Reddit. They are just hunks of flesh that appear after a Margwa has been decapitated and killed. They are not cocoons. Also I am not sure if you gateworms have to be put in a certain order at a certain place. It seems a bit of a stretch to me because the quotes could easily just be normal quotes when placing the gateworms.

Thanks for the debunked cocoon bit.

On gateworms: at this point i can't prove shit, but I'll say this again: i play a lot, the characters almost always say the exact same 2 quotes as i place the worms. Then, once in a rare game, they say these other things. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm hoping that you are. :)

Ragdo, yes, the lock from the crane-dropped crate. But it's probably bunk.


Edit: the worm/key picture may very well simply imply that they are key to opening pap. It may have zero to do with the AS.


Order of operations thoughts: i often try to do things with the full egg back in the sword holder, but the fact that the sword smokes as soon as you put the egg in, tells me that that is the correct thing to do and that leaving the sword is not.


Red circles: these glow once pap is open, whether or not you have done anything with the swords. If you kill on them with a nonpap weapon, they go out. If you kill on a circle that is not yours, they go out.

The circle has a text box to tell you to place the arch ovum, so the varying red circles don't really mesh with the sword steps.

Yes, it goes away after the ovum step, so either we have to do something before that step, or it is just a complicated visual glitch.

Yes, I've posted this before, but it needs to be kept in mind.


I killed all of the Margwa from the ovum steps with the sword only; sadly, this did not elicit any audio cues, nor did i see any changes in map. So, i still don't understand why this step charges your sword, and it may be something, but i didn't see or hear it yet, despite tryharding.


Edited by 83457
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Summoning key: has 6 symbols. One is Servant. The others are unknown.

Presumably they are the 5 symbols of the 5 altars. Each altar has the 4 player symbols. Maybe these symbols are located near the player symbols so we can determine which means which.

2 have URG in them, servant and one other. So far, I'm guessing this would be the pap ritual one and servant may mean apothicon servant or else you are the servant.

If it means AS, why? So far the pap hasn't really been too connected to it.

So maybe, just maybe, this is telling us to get the AS built, before we even grab the summoning key.

And zornash, (id gun word) zornash could quite likely be altar, AS, altar.

Not sure what to say until i try it and see if anything occurs.

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I believe the gateworms are the "Key" to upgrading the A.S. Did you see my post earlier about the "Cycle of Life". Maybe I need to make it it's own thread. I just don't know if I should. 

I know when I was playing earlier when I was Jackie "Fn" Vincent. When I placed the Egg in the final Statue he said this, "Yea so what if there's a crack in it, I may have dropped it a few times along the way. That bitch was heavy." 

Anyhow back to the "Cycle of Life". Basically it goes like this. Egg-Larva-Pupa-Imago.

So we have the Egg. Which just so happens to be called the "Apothicon Egg". 

We have the Larva, which just so happens to be connected to a Symbol named "Apothicon". 

Pupation occurs when the Larva is ready to mature. They begin wrapping themselves in a Cocoon. We know they are exist. How we make them come to be, that's what we are searching for.

Finally Imago/Adult. Once they've finally matured and become an Adult there "Top Priority Becomes REPRODUCTION"! Which we know a second version exists as well.

But Ragdoll there's no way the Gateworms are the Larva of the Apothicon Servant. Ok I digress, but let me present you with this, thanx to @GlitchingQueen for actually even figuring this one out & even more so, her permission to allow me to use this 


Now you tell me.

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