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The Meh

Airing Grievances.

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Hey, guys. Meh here.

 

Listen, before I get into absolutely anything, I want to go ahead and say that... for the most part, I love this forum. I have loved this forum for all the time I've been here. Four years of support on my ideas, a loving community to follow, maps and theories to discuss. It's all fun. I've met many people, experienced things, torn my heart out with my honesty and built upon it a reputable soul. My experiences here are good, and I look back on them well. This place has grown well in the time I've been here, and I like how it's been managed.

 

With that out of the way... bear with me when I say, I think there's problems. I think there's things needed to change, if this forum wants to stay afloat. It's become very apparent to me as of late, and I can't stand by anymore and see them perpetuate. So, I'm taking a stand here and speaking out for them. 

 

First things first... let's face a fact here, there's not a lot of people stopping by anymore. I get that, I do. The Reddit's around, the YouTube community's growing strong - it's a genuine win-win situation. But we've been left in the dirt, the background. I feel like, as these other bodies of the community rise, the roots have withered. I get that we try, and, truthfully, I won't deny that I don't know the exact visitor number, daily (a more comprehensive page for statistics would be lovely, come to think of it). I don't know perfect analytics, nor do I know the traffic this site gets. But, it's evident to me that, compared to its compatriots, we're in a lull compared. I don't wish to attribute it to the off season (truly, we haven't had a year without Zombies since Ghosts), and I don't wish to believe that it's anything other than the simple fact that... well, we haven't grown with the times. We've stuck to a format that we like, and I don't wish to see ourselves change "drastically" to embody a completely different image than that we originally started with. But I think, in the pursuit of things, we need to find a fix to this.

 

In my eyes, I believe that, if we want to ensure more traffic, we need to branch out more. In that, I mean that... we, as a forum, absolutely NEED to have more community involvement. I know we have a Twitter, a YouTube, the whole nine yards, but I thoroughly believe we need to completely overhaul them in some way if we want external services to produce internalized traffic, y'know? Re-brand the CoDz YT, call it "CoDzOfficial" or something, and make it a community hub page. Make topic videos about certain aspects of Zombies maps, reintroduce the infamous podcast (that I know little about to this day). Make weapon guides. Make "post of the week" videos. Introduce the same atmosphere we have here and inject it into that. Added into that, throw up an official Twitch. Run charity livestreams (be that for the forums to stay up or for actual places, like funds for hospitals and such), connect with other popular CoD streamers, perhaps even give them spotlight on the Twitch. Embrace the larger community at hand, really, as, together, we can have that power.

...oh, and before I forget with that point... re-connect with the Reddit, for the love of god. It may be run with other people at the helm, but I don't believe that it being there like that should mean that the forum that it (by all technicalities) was birthed from should take the backseat of its rise. I think there should be some internal talks with the crew that runs that, and that, in some way, we should involve eachother more than we already do. I think, in the grand scheme of things, a beneficiary relationship between the two would work out on both ends.

 

I think the second point I have to bring up here regarding things... more or less, is in regards to the way things are run. Believe me when I say, to every single Moderator and Admin that stands here still with us, I respect all of you. I respect that, as it stands, you guys do a fantastic job. Though, I don't know that everyone does it in the best manner. I don't think that every Moderator sees their work equal and just, or handles their work well, and in a conducive manner. Notwithstanding the fact that, if I'm being honest, I don't really even know how many of you are still around these parts. The most I see anymore around here is @Lenne, and @InfestLithium, the two of whom, I trust the most, and the two I believe will hear me out on these points as I say them.

I mean, honestly. People throw suggestions up all the time - hell, I've done it over the past few months and have had good answers from them. But I've seen a number run down that pipeline and not get the same treatment. Like Zombiefication ranks, which, truly, I'm glad to see as different and updated to represent a form akin to referencing the Black Ops III format... and yet, I go to look at the Zombiefication page, and these changes, these new ranks, they aren't there. How's someone supposed to know how they got their rank if the pictures don't represent them right? I know that's someone's job to do, I know it's someone's job to do upkeep on those pages, so... as a regular member, I feel it a disservice to not understand why these things aren't tweaked, or already dealt with. Notwithstanding, with this fact, the concern over the number of people still around to treat these things and correct them. Like... I know certain auth aren't able to come around anymore, as is. I know @Hells Warrrior is more or less his own body of sorts when it comes to activity... as are most admins, if I've come to understand it. But where are the mods? I'm not sure I understand where @GRILL, @DeathBringerZen, or even the likes of @Slade have gone. I know people have lives, I know they have higher priorities, but I don't get the idea of having a Staff team where 80% aren't around anymore. Is it that "the Old Guard's the Good Guard"? I don't understand it anymore. I was complacent about it, but the lack of activity and the general rut in which I've seen has simply become too much for me not to question it. As good as you all are, I find it appropriate to figure out the matter, and those overall with them.

 

The final thing I can think of that I find issue with is... likely, the one thing that I see as a more personal issue than anything else. That being, keeping the Zombie Labs/Stories sections barred from adding post numbers to the people using them. I won't be the first to admit that I didn't like the idea when it was introduced, and... as much as I've grown to accept it, I still don't like it. There are aspects I find lie into actually creating posts there, and I agree that there are issues with how it's been used in the past. Yes, I do understand that a single person posting thirty posts in Zombie Labs in a short time is bad, but, truthfully, it's something like that that we need to ask ourselves what we distinguish in there. There's a difference between "Zombies Ideas" and "Map Concepts", really. Some posts are more just rambling dialogue, and maybe those deserve to be thrown in a separate subforum as their own sort of ideas. But larger, expansive ideas, those that grow to be concepts of their own... something like The Unity Series, for example (my map concept series), those should perhaps be set aside to a different subforum, specifically for map concepts like them. It wouldn't be to set a bar, it wouldn't be to schism the whole of what makes that area of the forums what it is, but it would make the flow more conducive. Concepts and stories, I believe, deserve to be given their numbers for posts back, while smaller and generalized ideas should be kept barred. If that makes sense.

...in other words, I believe there's a better way to run that area, and that's what I believe we could do to assess it.

 

...with all of that in mind, however, I think I want to end this post. I know, there was a lot said, and I know that, truly, not all of it was good. I don't really want to make myself "Public Enemy #1" here, and I'd feel bad if that were the case I made for myself. I truly care for this forum, and its betterment from this moment to the next, enough so that I'd put myself on the line with a post like this. I hope you guys - the auth included - will understand that, as you guys read this.

 

I know that not everything can be done, as I know that not everything is perfectly capable, but I do want to see that something can be done as we move forward into the Black Ops IV season. As much as I love me a game of Zombies Hangman with just me and Lenne... I think it's time we garner a crowd again. I truly do. Hopefully, you guys will see that and stand with me on that shore.

 

With that said.

 

As always, more than ever...

...per aspera ad astra.

 

-The Meh

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Call it a "quality-of-life check" if you want, with some of these.

 

I want this forum to stand as strong as it can. I do think there's a way to go about doing that, and I'd leave it to you guys whether or not these ideas will help. I don't particularly believe that, with this, though, I would like to see it as just another "contribution". I think that most of these things need to happen, in some way or form.

 

I don't wish to detest the mods, I don't wish to detest the admins. I don't wish to err the ebb and flow of it all.

 

I just want to see this forum as it used to be. In some way, in some form. It's a hard truth, it really is, but one I can't stand by and bear. It's why I see maybe four people at most on the Discord anymore. It's why I see about 10 people on at most anymore around here. It's aggravating to be a supporter of a forum that I can't help but feel doesn't want to reach out to find that support... and maybe that's the wrong way to put it, maybe that's the angry way to put it, maybe I as a person am just angry about the state of things, but I can't hold that all in. A discourse that's existed for too long is no discourse we should let progress.

 

For the forum I care for deeply, this is the message I feel we need to be thinking about, moving forward.

...and I'm sorry if it isn't a positive message. I really am.

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I agree with a lot of your points, and I feel like the forum is a sort of stand-still, not really at the fault of anybody in particular. I'm sure it has been considered in the past to add new Admins and Mods, but the issue with that lies in finding people to trust with that kind of power. First the current admins have to be active enough to keep up with the best, most trusted users, and then they have to hand-select them, and further than that, the person they select has to WANT to be an admin and dedicate their time to the forum for free. 

 

I imagine for most people here, playing Zombies started out as a pastime in a time in our lives when we had time to spare. I know that is certainly the case for me. It's been nearly ten years since the community dug in its roots and has grown. Some change certainly needs to happen if the forum will be as active as it once was, but I can understand the struggle to be motivated enough to do it after so long. I know I struggle to find the time for the Storybook, and when I have the time I struggle with the motivation.

 

I think your ideas are on point, though. I think a large update/revamp to the site + wiki around the time of Black Ops IV's release would do well to bring some people back. I wish I could help more in this and could check in here more often.

Edited by RadZakpak

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2 minutes ago, RadZakpak said:

I agree with a lot of your points, and I feel like the forum is a sort of stand-still, not really at the fault of anybody in particular. I'm sure it has been considered in the past to add new Admins and Mods, but the issue with that lies in finding people to trust with that kind of power. First the current admins have to be active enough to keep up with the best, most trusted users, and then they have to hand-select them, and further than that, the person they select has to WANT to be an admin and dedicate their time to the forum for free. 

 

I imagine for most people here, playing Zombies started out as a pastime in a time in our lives when we had time to spare. I know that is certainly the case for me. It's been nearly ten years since the community dug in its roots and has grown. Some change certainly needs to happen if the forum will be as active as it once was, but I can understand the struggle to be motivated enough to do it after so long. I know I struggle to find the time for the Storybook, and when I have the time I struggle with the motivation.

 

I think your ideas are on point, though. I think a large update/revamp to the site + wiki around the time of Black Ops IV's release would do well to bring some people back. I wish I could help more in this and could check in here more often.

It's easily a progressive sort of issue. I think that it's one of the core reasons by the end of it all. We've had pretty much the same layouts and the same attitudes for years now. We're as open as we are inclusive, really. Although, I suppose that's a whole issue on its own.

 

As much as the idea of "we need more dedicated auth" sounds good, I don't particularly believe that to be an issue. We've got plenty of auth that I believe still care around here, in the form of @Lenne, @InfestLithium and @Hells Warrrior. I do believe that it would be good to bring the old guard back if we could, if they were willing, and I do think introducing a new guard would help the forum in quite a way. But in the grand scheme, I don't fully know if we should make it all "a question of auth". There's still dedicated people out there, and definitely a good number of them, I'm sure, would be willing to throw a hand into the mechanism.

 

Whether or not the forum rises or falls in the years to come, I just want to know that there were people still around trying to find ways to keep interest abound. I want to come online and find a group of people still theorizing about old questions left unanswered, or introducing new ideas, different ideas, good ones.

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Well, I attribute the lack of activity to the quality of games that was come out.  Take WWII for example.  It held your hand through the EE and I beat them with ease.  Bored and done with that game, I saw no need to even get on this website.  I didn't care what people were saying about the story or gameplay because it didn't interest me.  This is evident by the amount of posts that the Final Reich got.  Black Ops 4 has not even come out and there are more posts than the previous edition already.  Now, this forum seems to lean real heavy towards Treyarch.  After all, they are the originators.  We could be doing more to garner a younger crowd.  With this iteration of zombies, which I wholeheartedly believe will be an epic game changer, there will likely be a whole new group of players that may find this forum interesting.  Who knows, it might even inspire them to contribute on a level we have never seen.  We are starting another storyline and the last time that happened, the world lost their mind searching for Route B.  I am optimistic this season and if Black Ops 4 is the kind of game that I think it is going to be, we will be playing it for a few years to come.  Now would a great time to freshen up, but lets be sure not to lose the simplicity.  That is the best part for me.

 

BTW, I plan on destroying a good week online when it comes out.  I probably wont even touch multiplayer for a month or longer.  I like the idea of twitch.  Maybe I'll start some broadcasting.  I'll let you know. 

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We have tried so much over the years, massive involvement with social media, and I used to work full time on our YT channel while I was unemployed, (GK Cipher series) and it was probably the biggest growth and viewer activity spurt we’ve had in years, if ever. But without someone fully dedicated and properly equipped (which I am not), and have fresh ideas and a dynamic, familiar personality, it withers out.

Not to mention, there’s a whole other situation with that which I will leave to @Hells Warrrior to disclose at his discretion. 

 

@InfestLithium has made more investment in this site than you can imagine, and I dream that someday it will be resurrected and he will be launched to the head of the most vibrant Zs community on the internet. But he’s only one man, with his own life, which will undoubtedly finally drag him away as it has the rest of us on the staff. Because at the root of it all is a fundamental change in internet culture. The age of long-winded theories and fanfic is long gone. We don’t have the time or resources to compete with the YTers, who Activision is paying room and board with early access to the game every year (credit to them - they worked very hard to get where they are), and meanwhile Reddit feeds the modern need for forum, and in a format compatible with the modern audience. 

I have been working on ideas for CODZ since BO3 and it’s always that we don’t have the money, manpower, or means to resurrect. It’s nothing short of a tragedy. And as far as the old staff sticking around...it’s not that we’re trying to take up space. Full disclosure, I keep hoping I’ll have a chance to contribute...but life has eaten me alive, and I am just desperately trying to salvage slivers of it as it hurtles by. 

In the end...it’s just a game. Though this community is so much more. All good things come to an end - and I hope this isn’t the end for CODZ, but if it is, we have to be real and dignified about it.

 

As long as y’all have the zeal to fight, fight on. I will be cheering you on. 

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I wish I had an answer to all of your points, but I literally have no clue on how we can get this forum out of the state it is in.

It just seems like most of the people that used to be in here grew out of this forum and/or the game. We aren't the first thing anymore that comes to mind when someone thinks of Call of Duty zombies as a community. I don't even know if people want a community anymore.

I just wish folks would post at least once a week, cause it is not like we have nothing to talk about, but these last couple of months had pretty much had the same 6 people talking with each other and while I appreciate everyone who visits and posts on here, it is just too little for my liking.

One thing I would love to see would be normal topics getting shout outs from our Twitter alongside the ZWC stuff, I don't know. Maybe that could help?

I literally have no clue and it bursts my heart.

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1 hour ago, Lenne said:

I wish I had an answer to all of your points, but I literally have no clue on how we can get this forum out of the state it is in.

It just seems like most of the people that used to be in here grew out of this forum and/or the game. We aren't the first thing anymore that comes to mind when someone thinks of Call of Duty zombies as a community. I don't even know if people want a community anymore.

I just wish folks would post at least once a week, cause it is not like we have nothing to talk about, but these last couple of months had pretty much had the same 6 people talking with each other and while I appreciate everyone who visits and posts on here, it is just too little for my liking.

One thing I would love to see would be normal topics getting shout outs from our Twitter alongside the ZWC stuff, I don't know. Maybe that could help?

I literally have no clue and it bursts my heart.

This.

 

This right here.

 

You're entirely right about everything, as you are to feel the way you do about it. Yeah, it's a heartbreaking thing, and the reality of the matter's not exactly something I see pretty. Our image was grand and we were grander, and we've fallen back as of late. There's an image and an idea that we've been needing to not only identify, but pursue. The community still exists and is there, but it's no secret where the focus has shifted. I think the best path would to be to pursue that image again. Bring back the passion we used to have, and come back stronger from it all.

 

If that means prioritizing in a lot of areas, prioritize we will, y'know? If that means staff shake-ups and shifts, new faces or old faces, then that's a sight I'd be alright with. I can't bear to stand by and see nothing happen, though. So, I do wish to see things become of this. I would hate to let our passion be buried by inaction (even if the inaction is something we've identified already).

 

No matter what happens, though, I'll always be on your guys' side for the path we take, as long as it's an uphill one.


We can do this. 😉

4 hours ago, NaBrZHunter said:

We have tried so much over the years, massive involvement with social media, and I used to work full time on our YT channel while I was unemployed, (GK Cipher series) and it was probably the biggest growth and viewer activity spurt we’ve had in years, if ever. But without someone fully dedicated and properly equipped (which I am not), and have fresh ideas and a dynamic, familiar personality, it withers out.

Not to mention, there’s a whole other situation with that which I will leave to @Hells Warrrior to disclose at his discretion. 

 

@InfestLithium has made more investment in this site than you can imagine, and I dream that someday it will be resurrected and he will be launched to the head of the most vibrant Zs community on the internet. But he’s only one man, with his own life, which will undoubtedly finally drag him away as it has the rest of us on the staff. Because at the root of it all is a fundamental change in internet culture. The age of long-winded theories and fanfic is long gone. We don’t have the time or resources to compete with the YTers, who Activision is paying room and board with early access to the game every year (credit to them - they worked very hard to get where they are), and meanwhile Reddit feeds the modern need for forum, and in a format compatible with the modern audience. 

I have been working on ideas for CODZ since BO3 and it’s always that we don’t have the money, manpower, or means to resurrect. It’s nothing short of a tragedy. And as far as the old staff sticking around...it’s not that we’re trying to take up space. Full disclosure, I keep hoping I’ll have a chance to contribute...but life has eaten me alive, and I am just desperately trying to salvage slivers of it as it hurtles by. 

In the end...it’s just a game. Though this community is so much more. All good things come to an end - and I hope this isn’t the end for CODZ, but if it is, we have to be real and dignified about it.

 

As long as y’all have the zeal to fight, fight on. I will be cheering you on. 

With me, it's simply that... I don't want CoDz to end. Everyone who's still here does so much for it, and everyone tries there damnedest and hardest to keep our passion riding high like a firestorm. I don't think it'd be right to have such an important piece of the forum be lost to the sands of time while the series still runs.

 

If it comes down to it, I'd lay down quite a lot to see to it this forum comes back 'round. Maybe we need to be more associative with it all - maybe we should find a way to mobilize and support the other aspects of the community, like the aforementioned ZWC, or the actual YouTubers themselves (I know @MrRoflWaffles still has a profile 'round these parts, if that helps). Maybe we should bring in some of the crew from the Reddit to help run this site, to help co-exist and involve ourselves with the community echelons more than what we have now.

 

...because, well... while it's no reality yet... it's still an idea. It's still a possibility. That's enough to cause some real change, I'd say.

5 hours ago, JJMFP said:

Well, I attribute the lack of activity to the quality of games that was come out.  Take WWII for example.  It held your hand through the EE and I beat them with ease.  Bored and done with that game, I saw no need to even get on this website.  I didn't care what people were saying about the story or gameplay because it didn't interest me.  This is evident by the amount of posts that the Final Reich got.  Black Ops 4 has not even come out and there are more posts than the previous edition already.  Now, this forum seems to lean real heavy towards Treyarch.  After all, they are the originators.  We could be doing more to garner a younger crowd.  With this iteration of zombies, which I wholeheartedly believe will be an epic game changer, there will likely be a whole new group of players that may find this forum interesting.  Who knows, it might even inspire them to contribute on a level we have never seen.  We are starting another storyline and the last time that happened, the world lost their mind searching for Route B.  I am optimistic this season and if Black Ops 4 is the kind of game that I think it is going to be, we will be playing it for a few years to come.  Now would a great time to freshen up, but lets be sure not to lose the simplicity.  That is the best part for me.

 

BTW, I plan on destroying a good week online when it comes out.  I probably wont even touch multiplayer for a month or longer.  I like the idea of twitch.  Maybe I'll start some broadcasting.  I'll let you know. 

There's 100% a need for a larger crowd. YouTubers are smart, because they know the crowd they're aiming for, and yet we've always identified ourselves as a dedicated, bonafide hub for research and theorizing, targeted towards a crowd more mature than what the other side of the coin would show for. I hope the best for Black Ops IV to bring back the passion everywhere. I really do hope this forum benefits from it, man, I truly do.

 

...would be cool to see what you do with Twitch, by the way, man. Go for it.

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I say we add a new section dedicated to online streaming.  The interaction could be worth the time given.  I don't know if anyone streams but it is a dimension I don't think we have breached.  I think it would be a good idea so that when someone plans on streaming, say the EE, they post here and then people can know that they have a place to go to see how everyone is doing things different.  We have to compete with Youtube and Twich for followers.  If we don't try then we will never succeed.  

 

Any thoughts on this? 

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6 hours ago, JJMFP said:

I say we add a new section dedicated to online streaming.  The interaction could be worth the time given.  I don't know if anyone streams but it is a dimension I don't think we have breached.  I think it would be a good idea so that when someone plans on streaming, say the EE, they post here and then people can know that they have a place to go to see how everyone is doing things different.  We have to compete with Youtube and Twich for followers.  If we don't try then we will never succeed.  

 

Any thoughts on this? 

The thing is, I think we already have something like that. "CoDztube", or the like. I don't think it works right, honestly, but what I've come to understand of it is really just... throwing videos up about Zombies things. Useful, but not great for a lot. We've embedded Twitch before on the main page as well, but it's typically been annoying and in the way.

 

There's no proper way to go about doing it, but there's definitely ways to do it. We could always add a tab up near the top for stuff like that, throw names up of people streaming right now or known streamers, and maybe make that CoDztube thing more important with it. I don't really know, myself. It's hard to make it make sense, honestly.

 

...added, I don't think it's a matter of "competing" against them that we should worry about. It's whether or not we can stay afloat with them. Like Reddit does, for example. It's a matter of asking ourselves whether or not we can still stand above and be a reputable source for all things Zombies, and most things Call of Duty. It's what we are meant to be, really. I would never want to "compete" against parts of the community like that, even if it depends on the survival of the forums. That's not the way I see us making this forum come back again.

 

Facts are, if we were able to make proper maintenance, the place would look better, stand better, and perform well. If we had proper priorities and directive, we would have a more close-knit and active staff team, pages to support and expose the forums to a new audience, and a way to entice that audience. It's really all about making things fit, making things align properly, and use what resources we have to help our community - and this forum - prosper like it once could. We have the willpower, we have the strength and resources to do that, but it's a matter of whether or not we seek to do so anymore... a statement, to which, I despise having to say the most.

 

...but I'm getting somewhat off topic from the main point. Yes, I do like that idea as it is. I think we could make it work better than what we already have to run it with.

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There are many, many changes that need to be made not only to the software we use, but to CoDZ as a whole.

 

I agree that we are a non-competitive community that has been hit by lack of activity due to rising platforms like Reddit and YouTube continuously gaining traction for quick info instead of lengthy discussion. This is very apparent.

 

I agree that we need to strengthen the brand of CoDZ by establishing one universal identity instead of multiple names.

 

I agree that changes regarding active staff may need to come into play. We have a new team of Dwellers that still float around but due to lack of activity, makes their roles much harder. These will also be expanded to give them more training ground and pave way to potential new staff.

 

I agree that reviving the Wiki and making adjustments to the flow and structure of this site for BO4 is crucial to coming back into the light.

 

The big one that struck me was @Lenne's comment. People want the sense of community, but the majority are not willing to contribute for it. Comments get tossed around, and larger discussions have gone under.

 

I was glazing over Twitter a month or two ago and someone mentioned us while talking about storyline to another user and the person said, "I'd visit their site since they got a lot of info but it's like an old library". And that's what I realized - we're a library of Zombies intel. We may not having a pulsating and over-saturated community like we used to, but we have archived topics and threads that literally show the very foundation and beginning of Zombies as a whole.

 

If a library is what we are to be people, I have no problem with that. But change to stay afloat is absolutely necessary. I'm taking all these comments in as good criticism. Thank you.

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21 minutes ago, InfestLithium said:

There are many, many changes that need to be made not only to the software we use, but to CoDZ as a whole.

 

I agree that we are a non-competitive community that has been hit by lack of activity due to rising platforms like Reddit and YouTube continuously gaining traction for quick info instead of lengthy discussion. This is very apparent.

 

I agree that we need to strengthen the brand of CoDZ by establishing one universal identity instead of multiple names.

 

I agree that changes regarding active staff may need to come into play. We have a new team of Dwellers that still float around but due to lack of activity, makes their roles much harder. These will also be expanded to give them more training ground and pave way to potential new staff.

 

I agree that reviving the Wiki and making adjustments to the flow and structure of this site for BO4 is crucial to coming back into the light.

 

The big one that struck me was @Lenne's comment. People want the sense of community, but the majority are not willing to contribute for it. Comments get tossed around, and larger discussions have gone under.

 

I was glazing over Twitter a month or two ago and someone mentioned us while talking about storyline to another user and the person said, "I'd visit their site since they got a lot of info but it's like an old library". And that's what I realized - we're a library of Zombies intel. We may not having a pulsating and over-saturated community like we used to, but we have archived topics and threads that literally show the very foundation and beginning of Zombies as a whole.

 

If a library is what we are to be people, I have no problem with that. But change to stay afloat is absolutely necessary. I'm taking all these comments in as good criticism. Thank you.

...I don't know what I appreciate more. The fact that you responded, or the fact that you agreed with most all the points made... couldn't be happier about that myself.

 

I don't know if it would be picking too much at it, but I'm curious about the particular number of issues to the forum (software-wise/quality-of-life) you guys know about.

...if that's not prying, that is.

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Well, with streaming on Twitch, I can Rep the website.  Let viewers know that we have an active LFG, tell them about the content and community, as well as the overall content.  We are not just another forum.  I feel that we have a lot to offer.  Just look at the good work "Unity Series".  We have talent, we just need more exposure.  I feel that this is not a DEVs job alone.  It is my duty, as a donor, to take some form off responsibility for the success of this forum.  I may not have donated much to the cause but I am proud of this title.  We just need people that have the same mindset.  I can see sunny days.  Like I said before, this site buzzes a lot more during Treyarch years.  The uptick will be coming!

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@The Meh You hit a lot of soft but necessary spots that need to be addressed. If anything, thank you for taking the time to really buckle down on it. Sometimes things need to be criticized in order to be seen / dealt with accordingly.

 

As far as software is concerned...IPS (the forum we use) is the best kind out there. Sadly, they have garnered a bad reputation of pushing out too many updates quickly which causes great plugins we used to have to stop working, and screws with our design stylesheet in the backend since coding changes a bit. The result is a broken website and continuous updating which itself takes not only time but extra money. My concern, however, is having the forum very stabilized in terms of function and accessibility. The only plugins we truly depend on are the LFG, Donor system, and Awards. Even those come at risk.

 

@JJMFP We used to have a streaming sidebar, but I think that plugin was no longer supported with newer versions sadly. My vision is very similar - having regular CoDZ streams perhaps 1/2x a week with some podcast-esque conversations such as the Unity series or popular topics. The aim would be to get other smaller streamers to join us for a game and shoot the shit (so to speak).

Regardless, CoDZ appreciates you being a part of the community. We're super happy that you also proudly wear the Donor rank as well regardless (duh, helps in any way haha), but personally I can say I truly appreciate you (and every member here) for being a part of our family. 🙂

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25 minutes ago, InfestLithium said:

@The Meh You hit a lot of soft but necessary spots that need to be addressed. If anything, thank you for taking the time to really buckle down on it. Sometimes things need to be criticized in order to be seen / dealt with accordingly.

 

As far as software is concerned...IPS (the forum we use) is the best kind out there. Sadly, they have garnered a bad reputation of pushing out too many updates quickly which causes great plugins we used to have to stop working, and screws with our design stylesheet in the backend since coding changes a bit. The result is a broken website and continuous updating which itself takes not only time but extra money. My concern, however, is having the forum very stabilized in terms of function and accessibility. The only plugins we truly depend on are the LFG, Donor system, and Awards. Even those come at risk.

 

@JJMFP We used to have a streaming sidebar, but I think that plugin was no longer supported with newer versions sadly. My vision is very similar - having regular CoDZ streams perhaps 1/2x a week with some podcast-esque conversations such as the Unity series or popular topics. The aim would be to get other smaller streamers to join us for a game and shoot the shit (so to speak).

Regardless, CoDZ appreciates you being a part of the community. We're super happy that you also proudly wear the Donor rank as well regardless (duh, helps in any way haha), but personally I can say I truly appreciate you (and every member here) for being a part of our family. 🙂

A tear.  Nuff Said

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Thanks for posting this thread! I normally lurk or twitter and post oh so spicy memes. However I had been reading posts for sometime, but hadn't bothered to log in because it was typically related to WW2 of IW (both of which I didn't buy) and because I was locked out of my account. When I tried to recover my account we encountered a software bug, which we later discovered had impacted most of the staff and I'm sure many other members. So the good news is that some of us should be returning! Danny hit on a few things and I would like to shed some light on a few more. 

 

On 8/28/2018 at 6:38 PM, The Meh said:

Listen, before I get into absolutely anything, I want to go ahead and say that... for the most part, I love this forum. I have loved this forum for all the time I've been here. Four years of support on my ideas, a loving community to follow, maps and theories to discuss. It's all fun. I've met many people, experienced things, torn my heart out with my honesty and built upon it a reputable soul. My experiences here are good, and I look back on them well. This place has grown well in the time I've been here, and I like how it's been managed.

 

I still remember when you joined the forum, you brought a lot of new a different ideas to an otherwise like minded community (I like a pot stirrer😆

On 8/28/2018 at 6:38 PM, The Meh said:

First things first... let's face a fact here, there's not a lot of people stopping by anymore. I get that, I do. The Reddit's around, the YouTube community's growing strong - it's a genuine win-win situation. But we've been left in the dirt, the background. I feel like, as these other bodies of the community rise, the roots have withered. I get that we try, and, truthfully, I won't deny that I don't know the exact visitor number, daily (a more comprehensive page for statistics would be lovely, come to think of it). I don't know perfect analytics, nor do I know the traffic this site gets. But, it's evident to me that, compared to its compatriots, we're in a lull compared. I don't wish to attribute it to the off season (truly, we haven't had a year without Zombies since Ghosts), and I don't wish to believe that it's anything other than the simple fact that... well, we haven't grown with the times. We've stuck to a format that we like, and I don't wish to see ourselves change "drastically" to embody a completely different image than that we originally started with. But I think, in the pursuit of things, we need to find a fix to this.

In my opinion, I think where we fall flat is accessibility. Specifically when it comes to the navigating the the site on a mobile device. We live in a generation where its instant gratification or nothing. Unfortunately our efforts to branch to a mobile app platform were squashed by activision and the app store due a frequent use of their IP (even though we are a non profit site). We see approximately 10% of the traffic that the codzombies reddit has seen in the last 90 days. The larger issue with this activity is that 90% of the users are guests and are unable to contribute to the site.

image.png

On 8/28/2018 at 6:38 PM, The Meh said:

In my eyes, I believe that, if we want to ensure more traffic, we need to branch out more. In that, I mean that... we, as a forum, absolutely NEED to have more community involvement. I know we have a Twitter, a YouTube, the whole nine yards, but I thoroughly believe we need to completely overhaul them in some way if we want external services to produce internalized traffic, y'know? Re-brand the CoDz YT, call it "CoDzOfficial" or something, and make it a community hub page. Make topic videos about certain aspects of Zombies maps, reintroduce the infamous podcast (that I know little about to this day). Make weapon guides. Make "post of the week" videos. Introduce the same atmosphere we have here and inject it into that. Added into that, throw up an official Twitch. Run charity livestreams (be that for the forums to stay up or for actual places, like funds for hospitals and such), connect with other popular CoD streamers, perhaps even give them spotlight on the Twitch. Embrace the larger community at hand, really, as, together, we can have that power.

I think with the exception of Twitter, we have tried and failed to launch anything substantial from these other platforms. @NaBrZHunter, @Rissole25, and several other banged out some great vids back in the day. Myself and Craig had a modest following on the Twitch channel (which I think I lost the login info for...). I think with the exception of Danny the PodcastDerToten team are mostly retired (I miss those dudes!). Unfortunately in all of these circumstances consistency has been our downfall. Personal lives always seem to overtake us one way or another and to be honest I think trying to tackle to much wears us thin. I think we need to get really good at just one thing and roll from there. However, to your point we could definitely help to facilitate more community driven initiatives. I think Danny already called it out that the featured streams plug in might just need to be updated, but I'm all in!

On 8/28/2018 at 6:38 PM, The Meh said:

...oh, and before I forget with that point... re-connect with the Reddit, for the love of god. It may be run with other people at the helm, but I don't believe that it being there like that should mean that the forum that it (by all technicalities) was birthed from should take the backseat of its rise. I think there should be some internal talks with the crew that runs that, and that, in some way, we should involve eachother more than we already do. I think, in the grand scheme of things, a beneficiary relationship between the two would work out on both ends.

Unfortunately that are not looking to collaborate. I spoke with them some time ago, and they did not want to muddy the waters by directing to multiple access points for the same information. I think that is a fair call out and I respect their decision.

On 8/28/2018 at 6:38 PM, The Meh said:

I think the second point I have to bring up here regarding things... more or less, is in regards to the way things are run. Believe me when I say, to every single Moderator and Admin that stands here still with us, I respect all of you. I respect that, as it stands, you guys do a fantastic job. Though, I don't know that everyone does it in the best manner. I don't think that every Moderator sees their work equal and just, or handles their work well, and in a conducive manner. Notwithstanding the fact that, if I'm being honest, I don't really even know how many of you are still around these parts. The most I see anymore around here is @Lenne, and @InfestLithium, the two of whom, I trust the most, and the two I believe will hear me out on these points as I say them.

I mean, honestly. People throw suggestions up all the time - hell, I've done it over the past few months and have had good answers from them. But I've seen a number run down that pipeline and not get the same treatment. Like Zombiefication ranks, which, truly, I'm glad to see as different and updated to represent a form akin to referencing the Black Ops III format... and yet, I go to look at the Zombiefication page, and these changes, these new ranks, they aren't there. How's someone supposed to know how they got their rank if the pictures don't represent them right? I know that's someone's job to do, I know it's someone's job to do upkeep on those pages, so... as a regular member, I feel it a disservice to not understand why these things aren't tweaked, or already dealt with. Notwithstanding, with this fact, the concern over the number of people still around to treat these things and correct them. Like... I know certain auth aren't able to come around anymore, as is. I know @Hells Warrrior is more or less his own body of sorts when it comes to activity... as are most admins, if I've come to understand it. But where are the mods? I'm not sure I understand where @GRILL, @DeathBringerZen, or even the likes of @Slade have gone. I know people have lives, I know they have higher priorities, but I don't get the idea of having a Staff team where 80% aren't around anymore. Is it that "the Old Guard's the Good Guard"? I don't understand it anymore. I was complacent about it, but the lack of activity and the general rut in which I've seen has simply become too much for me not to question it. As good as you all are, I find it appropriate to figure out the matter, and those overall with them.

Funny enough this used to frustrate the shit out of me before I joined the staff in 2012. I would see all these folks on the staff and see problems not being fixed. At the time I spent more time on the forum than any every other users combined (it was a weird time for me). However, once I joined and saw all the activity logs of all the random back end shit that folks owned I gained a new respect for the team. Many actions are taken through the admin control panel and you would not see the activity reflected on the site. Our moderators with the exception of a few items have totally unrestricted access to the site and own many other responsibilities outside of typical moderator role. However full transparency, many have moved on or are just on a long break. Please keep in mind that everyone who works on the site is a volunteer and no one means to intentionally upset anyone by not maintaining aspects of the forum.  Danny and I will be regrouping the team and determining if we have any coverage gaps as we approach BO4. This could mean some new opportunities to join the team could be on the horizon :).

On 8/28/2018 at 6:38 PM, The Meh said:

The final thing I can think of that I find issue with is... likely, the one thing that I see as a more personal issue than anything else. That being, keeping the Zombie Labs/Stories sections barred from adding post numbers to the people using them. I won't be the first to admit that I didn't like the idea when it was introduced, and... as much as I've grown to accept it, I still don't like it. There are aspects I find lie into actually creating posts there, and I agree that there are issues with how it's been used in the past. Yes, I do understand that a single person posting thirty posts in Zombie Labs in a short time is bad, but, truthfully, it's something like that that we need to ask ourselves what we distinguish in there. There's a difference between "Zombies Ideas" and "Map Concepts", really. Some posts are more just rambling dialogue, and maybe those deserve to be thrown in a separate subforum as their own sort of ideas. But larger, expansive ideas, those that grow to be concepts of their own... something like The Unity Series, for example (my map concept series), those should perhaps be set aside to a different subforum, specifically for map concepts like them. It wouldn't be to set a bar, it wouldn't be to schism the whole of what makes that area of the forums what it is, but it would make the flow more conducive. Concepts and stories, I believe, deserve to be given their numbers for posts back, while smaller and generalized ideas should be kept barred. If that makes sense.

I'm blanking on the full logic behind this decision and it would have to be revisited. I think it was somewhere along the line of a ton of spamming which drove post counts, which unintentionally devalued more thoughtful posts in other sections of the forum. It could also be a factor of posts driving the divinium system (which I believe came some time after). I'll need to get a pulse on the section and get back to you, but I'm open to the suggestion.

 

Thanks for all of the feedback and driving me log in. It helped us a fix a much larger issue!

 

Best,

Brent

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3 hours ago, Boom115 said:

I approved Zombie Labs post counts and updated the Zombification menu to reflect the new images http://www.callofdutyzombies.com/zombiefications_levels.html/. Please let me know if there is anything else that I can provide immediate attention. 

First things first: OH MY GOD YES I'M SO HAPPY ABOUT ZOMBIE LABS (will my old posts be added back into my count though?)

Second: Welcome back, @Boom115! It's been so long, glad you're back! 😄

Third: I like the Zombiefication images. Most look nice. The old ones still kind of... well, they could use an update as the new ones are, if I'm being honest. I know that'd be a whole process, and I understand if that'd take time, but I'm just throwing that up. Also, I think I noticed a few pages that needed to be fixed elsewhere. Like the Staff Directory page (just linked it, it's usually just accessed in the "Staff" bit from the Help arrow), not properly reflecting correct colors and such for certain auth and so on... added, with @Slade now being a Veteran but still being on the Staff page, or the color of @Spider's name not being reflected on there. Just makes sense to tweak it correctly.

I'll see what I can do if I find anything awry elsewhere.

 

...I do want to reply to that other message though. So I'm gonna.

 

21 hours ago, Boom115 said:

So the good news is that some of us should be returning! Danny hit on a few things and I would like to shed some light on a few more. 

Glad to hear that, Boom. Any idea who we should expect to return from the shadows as of yet? Would be nice to have a killer conversation with @GRILL again.

 

21 hours ago, Boom115 said:

In my opinion, I think where we fall flat is accessibility. Specifically when it comes to the navigating the the site on a mobile device. We live in a generation where its instant gratification or nothing. Unfortunately our efforts to branch to a mobile app platform were squashed by activision and the app store due a frequent use of their IP (even though we are a non profit site). We see approximately 10% of the traffic that the codzombies reddit has seen in the last 90 days. The larger issue with this activity is that 90% of the users are guests and are unable to contribute to the site.

image.png

...first off, can I praise you a little more for giving me the graph for this? Because, holy crap, having that is great. I like being able to see statistical evidence and stuff, and know what's going well, what's popular, what's not and so on. I mentioned the whole thing about "a more comprehensive statistics page being lovely", and I really want to stick by that.

 

Moving on... I agree with that. Accessibility's definitely a problem for mobile, and I understand that trying to tap into the audience from there is plenty more difficult than it should be. If anything, I feel like giving Guests an initiative to join the forums and contribute to it would definitely help us, perhaps balance the scale with the amount we get. We're a service for the fans, built for the fans, and I think interest could be garnered if we were able to find some way to draw in that attention again.

 

21 hours ago, Boom115 said:

I think with the exception of Twitter, we have tried and failed to launch anything substantial from these other platforms. @NaBrZHunter, @Rissole25, and several other banged out some great vids back in the day. Myself and Craig had a modest following on the Twitch channel (which I think I lost the login info for...). I think with the exception of Danny the PodcastDerToten team are mostly retired (I miss those dudes!). Unfortunately in all of these circumstances consistency has been our downfall. Personal lives always seem to overtake us one way or another and to be honest I think trying to tackle to much wears us thin. I think we need to get really good at just one thing and roll from there. However, to your point we could definitely help to facilitate more community driven initiatives. I think Danny already called it out that the featured streams plug in might just need to be updated, but I'm all in!

Yeah, I agree that our focus should be to try what works and try one thing first, before we try to do other things. I think Twitch would be more or less executed with a better finesse if we were under the same name with the profile and let certain people do certain things, to follow a constant manageable schedule. In that way, it's not just run by a couple people, but is run by a group of people that can help manage it and direct it clearly. Consistency is good, and I think that would definitely help maintain it.

 

On the side of the Podcast, good lord we should bring that back, keep it going. Special guest YouTubers could be a thing, and so on, discussion of the games, focus on theories and ideas and so on, the Podcast could be directed greatly and I do very much believe that you guys can manage it. Maybe bring in some of the crowd to visit in the Podcast every now and then to talk.

 

I'm all for it, 100%, on that regard. Would love to be kept informed on it, myself!

 

21 hours ago, Boom115 said:

[regarding the Reddit] Unfortunately that are not looking to collaborate. I spoke with them some time ago, and they did not want to muddy the waters by directing to multiple access points for the same information. I think that is a fair call out and I respect their decision.

I... guess that's fair... I dunno. I'm not optimistic to that.

 

I still think that some way of keeping them connected would be nice. It doesn't have to be "oh, same people here too, we're gonna powerhouse the community together", more than I think it could be "oh hey, we've got good resources here, but if you wish to dive deeper, go to the CoDz forum/Zombie Library". But... I digress.

 

21 hours ago, Boom115 said:

[regarding the Staff blurb] Funny enough this used to frustrate the shit out of me before I joined the staff in 2012. I would see all these folks on the staff and see problems not being fixed. At the time I spent more time on the forum than any every other users combined (it was a weird time for me). However, once I joined and saw all the activity logs of all the random back end shit that folks owned I gained a new respect for the team. Many actions are taken through the admin control panel and you would not see the activity reflected on the site. Our moderators with the exception of a few items have totally unrestricted access to the site and own many other responsibilities outside of typical moderator role. However full transparency, many have moved on or are just on a long break. Please keep in mind that everyone who works on the site is a volunteer and no one means to intentionally upset anyone by not maintaining aspects of the forum.  Danny and I will be regrouping the team and determining if we have any coverage gaps as we approach BO4. This could mean some new opportunities to join the team could be on the horizon :).

I feel like understanding the amount of work you guys have to uphold is difficult for a person like me. Without a more public statistic page for the regular group to look at, I couldn't begin to understand how much stuff you guys uphold. I just know from what you guys say that it's a lot... and my only metric is between typicality (normal auth powers, as I've come to see) and the whole forum itself. You guys keep it running and have a lot of stuff to measure, lots of activity logs and other things.

 

I guess a part of me vies for that kind of transparency in the future. Part of me would like to see the activity logs accessible to us, really. Or just general stuff. Logs, posts per day, people online, metrics compared to prior weeks and months, I dunno. Plenty of sites have exemplary statistics, and I'm sure there's a good way to follow when getting them. It's all just up to you guys to figure that sort of stuff out, though.

 

Regarding the future with the staff team, I do hope we can see some old faces return. Keep the place goin' strong. New faces welcomed as well. The forum needs a good team to power it, a dedicated one at that. I hope for good things, to that end.

 

=====================================

 

That's pretty much all I wanted to say regarding that. I hope you can respond to the few questions I proposed.

 

On that end... good lord I feel so grateful.

 

I'm glad to see you guys coming back, and I'm glad to see that you guys wish to keep this place staying as strong as we can make it. I'm not gonna lie, the day I wrote this whole thing (the original post), I was in a frustrated slump... and I do think some of my points were a lot angrier than most of the others should have been. But the fact that you guys both considered them and took them with sincerity and gratitude is almost beyond words for a guy like me. I couldn't express how proud I am of that factor alone. I try too hard to as is.

 

I couldn't be more proud of being a member of the CoDz forum than I am today. Honest to god. This post's ignited a fiery passion in me, a positive one at that.

 

I hope we can bring this forum back to form well. I really do. There's a lot of work to be had to do that, as I'm aware, and yet I couldn't be more optimistic about that as I am now.

If anything, keep me posted on it. I'm all ears. All eyes to the future, as well. 😄

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Come to think of it. Regarding Zombie Labs stuff, if you guys ( @Boom115, maybe @InfestLithium ) want to send a PM my way, I had a couple of ideas regarding the way you guys run it. Totally up to you guys.

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17 minutes ago, The Meh said:

The old ones still kind of... well, they could use an update as the new ones are, if I'm being honest. I know that'd be a whole process, and I understand if that'd take time, but I'm just throwing that up. Also, I think I noticed a few pages that needed to be fixed elsewhere. Like the Staff Directory page (just linked it, it's usually just accessed in the "Staff" bit from the Help arrow), not properly reflecting correct colors and such for certain auth and so on... added, with @Slade now being a Veteran but still being on the Staff page, or the color of @Spider's name not being reflected on there. Just makes sense to tweak it correctly.

I'll see what I can do if I find anything awry elsewhere.

Staff Directory is all fixed up, just an oversight when I was flipping titles around. For updating the ranks, I'll have to tag in @InfestLithium, I'm no bueno with the photoshops.

 

20 minutes ago, The Meh said:

Glad to hear that, Boom. Any idea who we should expect to return from the shadows as of yet? Would be nice to have a killer conversation with @GRILL again.

Well on the staff end... @Spiderand @Doppelgängerrecovered their accounts yesterday. @GRILLand @DeathBringerZenwill be back when there is a need for moderation. We spoke with a Grill a few weeks back and he is looking forward to this season! Not sure who of the old users will return, but we are hoping to see many of them back.

24 minutes ago, The Meh said:

...first off, can I praise you a little more for giving me the graph for this? Because, holy crap, having that is great. I like being able to see statistical evidence and stuff, and know what's going well, what's popular, what's not and so on. I mentioned the whole thing about "a more comprehensive statistics page being lovely", and I really want to stick by that.

Keep the praise train running! Choo! Chooooo! I don't know that we would be able to make the stats page public (just a limitation of our current forum software), but I'd be happy to share any info you guys requests. Feel free to DM me.

 

I didn't read into any anger in your post, I suppose that the difficulty of trying to convey emotions through text. We need to operate on a culture of consistent feedback, thats the only way to continuously improve. Keep the feedback coming, and myself and rest of the staff will make our best effort to respond or implement changes. 

 

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10 minutes ago, The Meh said:

Come to think of it. Regarding Zombie Labs stuff, if you guys ( @Boom115, maybe @InfestLithium ) want to send a PM my way, I had a couple of ideas regarding the way you guys run it. Totally up to you guys.

Send them to both of us, we need to review together anyway. 

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2 hours ago, Boom115 said:

Send them to both of us, we need to review together anyway. 

Said and done.

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Bit of a closing remark here, that I wanted to make. I know there's other people that want to leave their remarks - I believe Hells still intended to address it - in my case, however... I felt it right I say something here.

 

I didn't really feel right making this post, at first, y'know. Even with what little a group we've had sticking around recently, I believed that... in a way, it could have resulted in the exact opposite reaction than it got. Honesty brings forth that fear, I suppose. That, even when you feel the most right, it could still be made to be wrong. It was an uneasy time writing this down, but I felt that it was right enough to pursue. Having said that... seeing the support that I feel this got was something of a good, reassuring notion. Seeing discussion overall was something that made me quite happy. Seeing a commentary from other Mods and Admins... was amazing. As was their insights and actual showing over certain aspects. Hell, seeing some of the auth return in general was great too!

 

But... I think actually seeing that some of these changes have actually affected this forum in such a way... it's the most joyous of ways to break the heart of a man like myself. I couldn't be more excited to see that such a commentary has been undertaken, and that these changes are even happening at all, and perhaps even proving effective. As a member of four years... it just proves to me that my time here is worth it. The front page hasn't looked this good in quite some time... hell, most pages are looking so good, lately. I couldn't be more happy and excited of the path that the forums have taken... all from this post. (...I know it's not all me... vanity, sorry. Just giving myself that happiness.)

 

So, if anything... thank you. All of you. Whether it's just been through viewing it, or commenting, or through you auth taking action on the things I've thrown about. Thank you. You've made this man prouder than he could ever be.

 

I know that there's a lot of work that the auth are undertaking with making this site look good again, and I know there's a lot of pages still around the forums that need to be fixed. If anything, I know that it's a certainty that I would wish to help in whatever way I can in regards to those pages. It's the best I can do.

 

But... having seen everything else that's been done so far...
...yeah.
I'm happier than I could ever be about that.

 

Y'know, I say "Per aspera ad astra" at the end of a lot of my posts, and I've never openly stressed why. It's a mantra for me, certainly... and it means "through hardships to the stars". In a way, though, I've always wanted it to end with "...we will prosper". In that same way... I'd love to say that that conglomeration is fair for this post.
So... "per aspera ad astra... we will prosper".

 

Love you guys. Stay golden for me.

❤

 

[P.S.: Yeah, I know, I'm a gushy soppy son of a bitch of a teddy bear sometimes. Can't help it. I'm too good for my own good. My shining positivity could blind a man.]

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On 9/3/2018 at 1:25 PM, Boom115 said:

Well on the staff end... @Spiderand @Doppelgängerrecovered their accounts yesterday. @GRILLand @DeathBringerZenwill be back when there is a need for moderation. We spoke with a Grill a few weeks back and he is looking forward to this season! Not sure who of the old users will return, but we are hoping to see many of them back.

 

Hey dudes! 😄

 

Touching words, meh.  Reminds me of a lot of the posts i made before I was staff (in a good way).  I was the producer of PDT while trying to revamp the YouTube.  The #1 issue was always getting the community’s to participate.  Considering the community is so small here now, I’d reckon it would be difficult to attempt to get new active members through a medium that has essentially surpassed ours (YouTube/Reddit).

 

that being said I’m all for fostering the remaining kick ass community.  I like the idea of catering to those that stuck around, rather then catering to some jerk who thinks we are JUST an old dusty museum.

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3 hours ago, GRILL said:

rather then catering to some jerk who thinks we are JUST an old dusty museum.

This is why I missed you so much. haha

 

❤

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