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NaBrZHunter

Why BO3 Zombies' "Otherworldly" Elements Feel Anticlimactic

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NaBrZHunter    491

Here's the thing about non-human enemies in any game or movies: people jazz 'em up with tentacles and teeth, spines and cheesy growls and roars, make them big and imposing, tack the term 'ancient' on them and tell us they're a threat. Because they're ugly. And they picked us this time. Because they want our gold. Or our water. Or our blood. Or a cupcake. 
But I feel no conviction. So the Apothicans need a new planet to lay their eggs on. Great! They're gonna take it from us? Uh...okay. I am not inwardly convicted. I can't design propaganda against them-I'm simply confused as to why it's so important to them that we be wiped out. "All I have" as motivation is 'save the world'. There's no mystery; no intrigue. It's just the same old reason every other otherworldly and and alien fiction suggests. I have nothing in common with otherworldly monsters; there's no moral conflict. Nothing poignant about it. 

In addition to this, explanations of how these creatures are so intelligent, and how they're supposedly so powerful are usually just left to "because they're 'evil' (whatever that really means); and ancient. And some people used to worship them." And these traits alone somehow make them more powerful than an highly intelligent race of creative and resourceful creatures with a complex understanding of the physics of our universe. Man, if only we could figger out how to harness their special kind of "evil." We might be able to travel to Mars without a rocket. Without anything, for that matter, except maybe an object that we have infused with our "evilness". But moving on...

I believe part of a truly epic struggle is conviction. Both sides are driven by their passions, their beliefs; their fears of what the other may do. In many cases they're driven by a disdain for a certain other faction that they have built up aggressiveness towards because of that faction's belief or actions that they feel threaten their way of life, their future, or their other plans. The aggressors seek to conquer and not only destroy their nemesis, but bring others in the world-including enemies-to their point of view. 
And lastly, one of the biggest factors to all of this is human commonality. Every faction shares something. Warring human factions have complex perspectives of each others' motives, often driven by propaganda. No matter how much we say that evil factions across time 'dehumanized' their subjects, it's tragically mindblowing to realize that it was the oppressors' own understanding of a common human fear and suffering that taught them the most effective ways of tormenting the factions they hated. 
This, in particular, is what makes humans, in my opinion, the most terrifying and threatening beings on this planet: so much more so than a Margwa, a Keeper, a Dragon; some oversized sky octopus or a somehow ancient, grumpy kraken with a God complex. 
We created the nuclear bomb. We're capable of removing this planet from existence.We know how to extract nearly anything from another person using our understanding of fear. We're capable of controlling other human brains. We know what scares us. We know what our weaknesses are because we're human, a concept that no non-human enemy can quite grasp the way that we can.

And that is one of the things that made zombies such a fascinating story for me, personally. It carried that same feeling that Treyarch so effectively portrayed in WAW, a darkness, a bitterness; crumbling, struggling humanity. Zombies picked up on that in a unique way-I'll never forget the first day I gave The One a good, concentrated listen, and was blown away by the moral and tragic implications. It gave me a fascinating fictional answer to a question that had occurred to me long ago, the first time I saw a zombie oriented movie: What happens to the soul of a person who is zombified? Are they responsible for their actions? The One answered that in a tragic, beautiful, dark and moving way that gave an implausible, fictional video game with goofy main characters a dark, humanity-driven undertone. Of course, this also drove me to be Team Maxis for so very long until probably last year, when I began doubting his motives, because I sympathized with him for his failure as a father, and with Samantha for getting so caught up in the horror. 

But again, the silliness of Richtofen, his three goons and their dumb comments and bumbling ways were silhouetted by a darkness made up of the backstory of how they became what they are. One might even look at the zombies as an allegory for Dempsey, Nikolai and Takeo: individuals trapped inside themselves, manipulated by Richtofen in his pursuit of control.
This darkness leads to the betrayal of Dr. Maxis, a careless, but loving father, obsessed with his work, and corruption of an innocent little girl. And what made that darker than any Apothican or Keeper or alien or devil could, was that it was caused by human mistakes. Human regrets. Human lives lost and destroyed. HUMAN FEAR. 

Why are zombies and horror movie insane asylum inmates so terrifying? I believe it's because we are so shaken by the thought of such a familiar, capable, or, in the case of an psychotic asylum inmate, likely a very intelligent being targeting us, yet so out of control and lacking natural human empathy.

Additionally, we fear the deep-buried humiliation and bizarreness that we sense when we realize that we could become one of those beings. It's a fear similar to that of a person facing a public execution, or simply the fear of not having control of our own bodies and becoming an inhuman beast, ourselves, outside of our own motivation. 

Black Ops and World at War, I believe, borrowed the sensations of the darkness of the world war and the trepidation of the Cold War, combined with that fear of a homo sapien out of control (zombies) in the middle of dark, abandoned sites rife with dark human history. 

With SoE, however, I feel much of that was lost, replaced by stereotypical horror, great beasts without a real cause, all while set in a fictional city, in a 'fractional reality' of another universe. 

My pal @BlindBusDrivr pointed out that, in the past, we also saw the the psychology of isolation used heavily. Nacht. Verruckt. Shi No Numa. Der Riese. Kino. Ascension. Moon. The feeling of loneliness and isolation that enshrouded those maps and their stories seems long distant now. Recall the sounds of the distorted and distant radio transmission in the Comms hut at Shi No Numa? It emphasizes an amazing aloneness that has been lost since NPCs became such a major part of the experience, be it Richtofen or Maxis in the BO2 story, Sam in Origins, The Shadow Man in SoE or Dr. Groph in DE. That sense of isolation; the Beauty of Annihilation is no more.

Now, some have brought up that an otherworldly or alien faction has always been around: namely, the Vril-Ya. The difference, however, is that the Vril-Ya always remained shrouded in mystery. We never saw them, heard them, or encountered them in any way. We only saw their work and the things they left behind, always leaving us guessing. It's been up to us to interpret who they were and what exactly they influenced.
But now it's different. We see things, these other beings. Nothing is left to imagination-and what's worse, they are weak; I daresay pathetic for beings touted to be of a superior intelligence and power. The Margwa are easy, the parasites couldn't hit a target if their lives depended on it, the enormous octopus in the sky just sits there undulating and occasionally dropping bloody, burning meatballs. And our supposedly so-powerful allies, the Keepers sit around like bumps on a log waiting for us to give them stuff, and then standing around with whatever we give them, while the supposedly so powerful Shadow Man gets his ass handed to him by four mentally challenged, self-centered individuals who he thought would just do his bidding, then lay down and die.

The vast majority of the community (especially the AlphaSnake/Faust followers and new folks) love the change - the preternatural, otherworldly elements; so the direction it has gone is no doubt the path it will continue to take. Ah well, that's just my two cents. 

 

Reddit Thread and Discussion:  https://redd.it/476r8s

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83457    263

Interesting, and very well expressed.

I definitely agree with the isolation aspect too.

----

My reasons for still loving waw the most is this: no story, no annoyance, no busy work, just jump in and play.

I know many of you love the story and tried to extract one from waw, but to the average player, it was just a game of shoot 'em up.

Everything added from ZV, SNN, and DR, was a plus. It made the game easier and fun. Dogs were easy and gave max ammo, the random perks of SNN was no big deal, but kind of fun. Adding perks in ZV was a huge boost. Adding a Wondergun was excellent. Bowie Knife was a hit. The biggest annoyance was the box moving on you, which isn't bad.

----

Just yesterday, i played some BO zombies, and what a huge downturn the game was in so many ways.

Pros: bigger maps, that were really interesting. New perks and WWs.

Cons: Tons of annoyance added:

Way too many doors to buy, tight walkways, bad guns (almost exactly the same on every map) with too little ammo, zombies load underfoot and raise you in the air, zombies load in front of walkways just as you get there, zombies despawn and respawn in front of you, BK/Sickle nerfed instead of buffed, constant kniving glitch, constrained points made it almost better to skip the knife, annoying zombies added (Jews, Thief, George, monkeys, et cetera), Moon, easter eggs and busywork added.

Then BO2 came, and continued the annoyance spam: Tranzit's fire and denizens. What the fuck is with that WW? Once folk found a way to almost make it useful, it got patched. No wallbuys in Town? What the F?

Die Rise elevators. At least the jumpy guys were easy and gave max ammo. But the elevators suck so bad; just making them normal elevators, where you hit a button to call them would have eased the pain, but no.

Buried was okay, but so freaking easy.

Origins would be excellent if we could carry any number of parts instead of 4 hours of solo busywork.

Even the survival maps failed hard: fire on Town and Farm and Bus Depot? Seriously?

Nuketown could have been real fun, training around the houses, but no. The whole map is blocked off and uneven and has no perks. 

-------

Going forward, i would gladly skip the next barely finished, glitch fest with hours of busywork, for 2 simple survival maps, with the perks and guns not hidden, and not requiring hours of necessary boredom just to get the map open.

Also, put in some more camp spots; you'll never last as long as training, but at least give us the option for team camping. More options means more fun.

Make most games customisable, and then have a leaderboard lobby (like e-sports rules for zombies) for the Spikes who need to see their name up there.

Let the rest of us play zombies, instead of Nazi Busywork.

SoE, the game could easily have survival mode: Ritual areas and PaP are open, WW in the box, 1 Margwa every 5 rounds for max ammo, including porkballs and flyers. I bet more folk would play the survival mode than the regular SoE as it is now.

Maybe give us a couple SoE/DE maps, and then several smaller survival maps.

Tranzit had a good idea with the survival maps, but it was just executed so very poorly.

Lastly, Treyarch needs to stop making zombies for them and for the 5% of players that make it past round 30. Most folk simply aren't as good as we here at codz are.

Give them easy, give them Arbgwaoth, give them customisation. Fun beats leaderboards in every game ever.

This has been my opinions only, take it as such. Happy gaming!

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anonymous    339

I also think MotD, origins and BO3 are too shiny or something, cant really explain it.

Everywhere red or blue light, the game designers payed too much attention too the environment and gave it a spectaculair, but less creepy layout.

I prefer the dusty, dark places from the older maps.

Give me a creepy dark map like Kino, and I'm happier then with SoE. (I'm just talking about the admosfear, not the new functions, there great)

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NaBrZHunter    491

@83457 Thanks for taking the time to read-and to make a detailed response.I know that was kinda a doozey.

I definitely have respect for that viewpoint, though I can't say I feel the same-certainly not about Black Ops, as I am actually a huge fan of the arsenal (not that it holds a candle to WAW-those weapons were breathtaking) but I have learned to use them well, and live off wall buys unless I'm rolling in cash and wanna have some box gambles. Respawn in CotD was the WORST; the others, I found it half decent. In Ascension, I don't think I've ever had a crawler despawn, I don't recall with S-L, and Moon is okay, only a big problem if trying to hack doors and a "stinky" drops from the ceiling.
The EEs were 100% optional and provided a little extra fun for the story-driven and adventurous, but didn't step on the toes of the folks who wanted to play for the sake of the game.

But still, you have a point.

The only thing I think BO2 brought to the table was an optional buildable like the shield. Ignore it if you like, build it if you want it.

But in the end, I want to see a map where we have no 'helpers' (keepers or otherwise) no otherworldly cheese, no supernatural weapons (remember when you had to be strategic with the use of your wonder weapon? Thundergun, Babygun, Ray Gun, Zap/Wave Gun?)
 

@anonymous This is so true. Too many lights and colors. This is why I prefer the red WAW/BO1 115.

If I could keep some things from BO3, they would be:

Sliding instead of diving
The sneaky zombies that don't make a sound until you see or interact with them
Wall weapon customization
A few of the GobbleGum

I can't really think of anything else...

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Ragdo11706    363

@83457

Every time they give us fun and easy, they have to go back and take it away. It's almost as if they do NOT want players to have fun and get to a high round (luckily enough for me I fall in that 5% category).

Nonetheless, take Der Eisendrache for example, vast majority of the community loved the Map or at the very least enjoyed playing it. Because this Treyarch decided it would be a good idea to go ahead and Nerf all the Weapons, while Buffing the panzer making him even harder to kill than he already was.

________

With all that being said, in Origins, you could carry all the parts at once similar to that of MotD.

Nuketown had Perks, they just dropped at random ass times in random ass places. I didn't care for it because you could be in the mid 20s before Jugg ever spawned for the first time. Amazing idea that was poorly executed.

The problem with CotD & Moon, was the size of the Maps. Therefore when kiting a Hoard of Zombies you had to make sure you damaged them before you got to far ahead or else they would respawn leading to a whole world of other problems.

_________

@NaBrZHunter

YES, I can't tell you how much I love the Slide feature as opposed to the Dolphin Dive (which I hardly ever used even with Flopper). 

I could do without the Silent Ninja Zombies though, they actually make me jump almost every time (True Story).

Ohh, and I love the ability to customize the Box Weapons & Wall Weapons.

Edited by Ragdo11706
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83457    263

Ragdoll, customization came to 360land yesterday. It's tits. I've been looking forward to that for 3 months!

NaBrZHunter: make no mistake, i played the shit out of BO. But, in the long run, it's my least played zombie game.

I hate Trollarch a lot, but that being said, BO2 is one of my top 3 'fun to play' CoDs (mp). It glitches every single match, the maps mostly sucked, but the game play was actually fun. And zombies is one of my favorite, though poorly made, games ever. I wish it was put together as well as Extinction was. IW shamed Treyarch in that way. "Look, our side game actually works, and we made it better as the year went on". Treyarch needs to step up to professional level. They're playing in the big leagues with wiffle bats and nerf balls.

Shrug.

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NaBrZHunter    491

@Ragdo11706 HAHA! I love the jump scares, honestly. They're genuine. They put some spook back in the game. Haha! They're scarier than anything I discussed in the OP. 

Speaking of which, I'm assuming you're a fan of those story/experience changes?

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Ragdo11706    363
15 minutes ago, NaBrZHunter said:

Speaking of which, I'm assuming you're a fan of those story/experience changes?

Na not really, I enjoyed the mystery revolved around W@W & Black Ops I, (another W@W vet here). 

The only thing I can say is hopefully if this is the culmination of the O4s story, hopefully this is actually in the way distant past, and in the next Treyarch game, we get to see how the current state of the World is as a whole, from this (outbreak) disaster caused by "Primis".

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NaBrZHunter    491
On February 14, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Ragdo11706 said:

Na not really, I enjoyed the mystery revolved around W@W & Black Ops I, (another W@W vet here). 

The only thing I can say is hopefully if this is the culmination of the O4s story, hopefully this is actually in the way distant past, and in the next Treyarch game, we get to see how the current state of the World is as a whole, from this (outbreak) disaster caused by "Primis".

Ah! Okay. 

Interesting idea...how do you reconcile it with being in 1943-5?

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Ragdo11706    363
18 hours ago, NaBrZHunter said:

Ah! Okay. 

Interesting idea...how do you reconcile it with being in 1943-5?

Or we'll be 700 years in the future, when the "Children" were telling their story. Thus making it, the way distant past.

Edited by Ragdo11706

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anonymous    339

Yesterday I played for the first time Verrückt seriously (I played it once before on a friends party but that was without sound and stuff, so nah).

Now, I really felt in love with that map.

I played it with tree people, but I spawned alone and to join the others, the power must be turned on.

That idea only is already creepy as hell

Once we were togheter, we were shooting rows of normal zombies in one of the creepiest places you can imagine while that song was playing....I will never forget it.

Wish Treyarch would give me those feelings back.

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Ragdo11706    363

@anonymous

I remember the first time I ever played Nacht for the first time, I was literally scared as F**K. 

Anytime you see us older folk reminiscing about the past, these are the reasons why. The way Treyarch implemented Zombies originally, was unlike anything any of us had seen before.

The usage of Nazis' made it that much more eerie, as a lot of people have speculated for many years the Nazis were far more intelligent at that time than any other Human Being.

Now it's almost like a joke to Treyarch, so they add in all this convulted shit that makes no sense. Not too mention someone over there obviously can't stand for people to get to a high round. 

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Spider3000    140

Nice post Hunter. Honestly, I am enjoying the current direction in which the story is going, as I am fascinated by the Cthulhu Mythos.

However, I definitely understand where you're coming from. While I am enjoying this story, it will never come close to matching the WaW/BO1 story. The old story was so mysterious, and almost (this may sound ridiculous but) magical.

The mysteries in the story were probably the main part as to why it was so loved. The community enjoyed coming up with theories to fill in the gaps that Treyarch never bothered to fill. All this time I wanted answers from Treyarch to questions they never answered. And now we're finally getting them. With Der Eisendrache,

Spoiler

we now know who the Mexican test subject is, we know where Eagle's Nest is, and we know what Doctor Groph looks like.

However, I could have done without knowing what people like Maxis, and Samantha look like. I could have done without knowing the things we learned in Der Eisendrache. Figuring out the questions through evidence and agreeing on a conclusion was part of the fun in the end. And that's what Zombies is missing now; the mystery.

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anonymous    339
7 hours ago, Ragdo11706 said:

@anonymous

I remember the first time I ever played Nacht for the first time, I was literally scared as F**K. 

Anytime you see us older folk reminiscing about the past, these are the reasons why. The way Treyarch implemented Zombies originally, was unlike anything any of us had seen before.

The usage of Nazis' made it that much more eerie, as a lot of people have speculated for many years the Nazis were far more intelligent at that time than any other Human Being.

Now it's almost like a joke to Treyarch, so they add in all this convulted shit that makes no sense. Not too mention someone over there obviously can't stand for people to get to a high round. 

Love it to hear about peoples first reactions on zombies and zombie maps, and I agree about Treyarch adding more and more stuff that doesn't make much sense.

2 hours ago, Spider3000 said:

Nice post Hunter. Honestly, I am enjoying the current direction in which the story is going, as I am fascinated by the Cthulhu Mythos.

However, I definitely understand where you're coming from. While I am enjoying this story, it will never come close to matching the WaW/BO1 story. The old story was so mysterious, and almost (this may sound ridiculous but) magical.

The mysteries in the story were probably the main part as to why it was so loved. The community enjoyed coming up with theories to fill in the gaps that Treyarch never bothered to fill. All this time I wanted answers from Treyarch to questions they never answered. And now we're finally getting them. With Der Eisendrache,

  Reveal hidden contents

However, I could have done without knowing what people like Maxis, and Samantha look like. I could have done without knowing the things we learned in Der Eisendrache. Figuring out the questions through evidence and agreeing on a conclusion was part of the fun in the end. And that's what Zombies is missing now; the mystery.

You're right, and you know whats funny, first people want to know answers on things, and when the answers are given, it isn't much fun anymore.

I guess Treyarch should let some things a mystery and leave it to us to solve and make theories about them.

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Ragdo11706    363
1 hour ago, anonymous said:

You're right, and you know whats funny, first people want to know answers on things, and when the answers are given, it isn't much fun anymore.

I guess Treyarch should let some things a mystery and leave it to us to solve and make theories about them.

That's why they answer some questions, whilst creating even more.

4 hours ago, Spider3000 said:

However, I could have done without knowing what people like Maxis, and Samantha look like. I could have done without knowing the things we learned in Der Eisendrache. Figuring out the questions through evidence and agreeing on a conclusion was part of the fun in the end. And that's what Zombies is missing now; the mystery.

"Magical", was a good way to word it. 

I don't think the Samantha from "Origins" is the same one. It's good though to see what people like Dr. Groph looked like, as there was soo little known about him. Hopefully in the next map, we see someone like Gersch, Yena, or even Dr. Schuster.

 

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Spider3000    140
1 minute ago, Ragdo11706 said:

I don't think the Samantha from "Origins" is the same one. It's good though to see what people like Dr. Groph looked like, as there was soo little known about him. Hopefully in the next map, we see someone like Gersch, Yena, or even Dr. Schuster.

I personally wouldn't like that. Imagining what these characters look like is part of the fun in my opinion. Seeing what Samantha looked like in Moon, or Maxis in the Origins intro, which definitely wasn't needed, ruins a bit of that mystery for me.

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Ragdo11706    363
18 minutes ago, Spider3000 said:

I personally wouldn't like that. Imagining what these characters look like is part of the fun in my opinion. Seeing what Samantha looked like in Moon, or Maxis in the Origins intro, which definitely wasn't needed, ruins a bit of that mystery for me.

I can see why you would say that. 

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NaBrZHunter    491
25 minutes ago, Spider3000 said:

I personally wouldn't like that. Imagining what these characters look like is part of the fun in my opinion. Seeing what Samantha looked like in Moon, or Maxis in the Origins intro, which definitely wasn't needed, ruins a bit of that mystery for me.

You know, I'm kinda on the fence, actually. I don't mind having met Groph, but I don't think I wanna see Gersch, Yuri or Schuster. Especially not Schuster. I have this thing I'd love to see happen in DLC4...I wanna see Schuster kill the Origins 4, not take their souls into the summoning key, and escape to revive the O4, setting us up for CoD 2018. But I don't want to see his face. Just his feet and slacks/lab coat when he picks up the Summoning Key from Richtofen's dead body. BUT DON'T TELL US IT'S SCHUSTER! LOL! 

I can't agree about Samantha. That's probably my favorite character debut. However, I gotta agree about Maxis, though. If they hadn't put his face in Origins, I think that could be an even hotter topic. It's all perspective, @Ragdo11706. I can also see how it benefited things. 

However, think on this: there is no evidence the hanging  man is Peter. This could be one of the greatest plot twists in the history of Zombies if they would only run with it. I hope we never see him. The idea of a character who has never spoken, cheated death, and has been thought to be dead for a century still being alive is thrilling. I hope they keep him limited to MINIMAL text logs.

@anonymous Bravo!!! Love to hear that about Verruckt. Have you played Shi No Numa alone with a headset? :twisted: Bwahahaha! I love that map! So spooky. The voices, the sing-song chanting, the creaking and groaning, broken radio signals...damn, best ambiance EVER in zombies history, IMO.

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83457    263

I was just playing Shi No Numa the other day, and the background effects are awesome.

Mw2 and waw were gritty, it felt like you were submersed in the game. Then BO came along and it felt like you were submersed in a Tom and Jerry cartoon. Ha.

I'll say it again: training is the best way to zombie, but man do i miss good WaW zombie camping.

In waw, zombie verrückt had windows that zombies wouldn't come in if you opened it right, so you could camp solo.

I solo camped to 23 by speed cola. I'm an old blind man, so I'm proud of that record (of course multiple gun glitches were the norm back then and not frowned upon, nor patched).

---------

I feel the game is anticlimactic because the basic, easy fun of the game has been polluted with 'bigger, faster, more' from a company that couldn't make simple zombies function well, let alone 'bigger, faster, more' zombies. 

When you spend an hour or 3 getting to a high round and then you die to a glitch, that's easier to swallow then spending an hour just to set up and then dying to a glitch on round 10. At least it was fun until you died in the first example, not busywork and frustration over the low quality programming of yet another unfinished zombie map that will likely never get properly patched.

Most existing glitches in WaW add to the fun of the game. Most existing zombie glitches since WaW, detract from the fun, or are patched immediately while game-ruining glitches are ignored.

Shrug. I'm not hating, Treyarch just sucks.

Edited by 83457
Typo or two

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anonymous    339
58 minutes ago, NaBrZHunter said:

You know, I'm kinda on the fence, actually. I don't mind having met Groph, but I don't think I wanna see Gersch, Yuri or Schuster. Especially not Schuster. I have this thing I'd love to see happen in DLC4...I wanna see Schuster kill the Origins 4, not take their souls into the summoning key, and escape to revive the O4, setting us up for CoD 2018. But I don't want to see his face. Just his feet and slacks/lab coat when he picks up the Summoning Key from Richtofen's dead body. BUT DON'T TELL US IT'S SCHUSTER! LOL! 

I can't agree about Samantha. That's probably my favorite character debut. However, I gotta agree about Maxis, though. If they hadn't put his face in Origins, I think that could be an even hotter topic. It's all perspective, @Ragdo11706. I can also see how it benefited things. 

However, think on this: there is no evidence the hanging  man is Peter. This could be one of the greatest plot twists in the history of Zombies if they would only run with it. I hope we never see him. The idea of a character who has never spoken, cheated death, and has been thought to be dead for a century still being alive is thrilling. I hope they keep him limited to MINIMAL text logs.

@anonymous Bravo!!! Love to hear that about Verruckt. Have you played Shi No Numa alone with a headset? :twisted: Bwahahaha! I love that map! So spooky. The voices, the sing-song chanting, the creaking and groaning, broken radio signals...damn, best ambiance EVER in zombies history, IMO.

I love shi no numa, i love all the WaW maps.

I think its less creepy then verrückt, but a better story.

IMO, together with verrückt the best WaW map.

That story....wow......two days ago I read all the topics about peter the hanging man, the spy and all those theories.

You impressed me again, CoDZ folks!

One question about Nacht and Verrückt, why are the O4 in BO1 in these maps?

I mean, in the story it are american squads that are sent there, so what are the O4 doing there?

Oh, and I saw your status update about the brains and likes, and I think I know what you mean.

I'll try to reduce them so they will become more valuable :)

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NaBrZHunter    491
28 minutes ago, anonymous said:

I love shi no numa, i love all the WaW maps.

I think its less creepy then verrückt, but a better story.

IMO, together with verrückt the best WaW map.

That story....wow......two days ago I read all the topics about peter the hanging man, the spy and all those theories.

You impressed me again, CoDZ folks!

One question about Nacht and Verrückt, why are the O4 in BO1 in these maps?

I mean, in the story it are american squads that are sent there, so what are the O4 doing there?

Oh, and I saw your status update about the brains and likes, and I think I know what you mean.

I'll try to reduce them so they will become more valuable :)

Hey, I can respect that. Verruckt is golden-one of a kind, for sure. I hope they keep retconning it. So much potential for great story there.

And yeah! Peter...I still need to write up a thread at least suggesting my long-winded argument about how it may not be him, even if it has some holes. I think they could still run with it and wow, there's a WHOLE OTHER STORY THERE. Agh...one of my favorite topics.

I believe the general consensus is that since it was just a re-release, they didn't put extra effort into story, so technically, the O4 being there isn't canon. Only the WAW versions are.

Hey, that wasn't directed at you only, my friend. It's chronic across the site-and understandably. Heck, I have to drag my tapping thumb away from the like button a lot. LOL! "Like" is such a universal term. Back awhile, there was actually a guideline for giving Brains, but that has vanished. So no biggie. But thanks for noticing!

@83457 No kidding, WAW was gritty like none will ever be again, I'm afraid. Though-lol-I still don't understand how BO1 was like a Tom and Jerry. Though, actually, the quotes definitely got kinda off-the-wall. Regardless, both WAW and BO kick BO2 and BO3 any day of the week.

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83457    263

Ha. The Tom and Jerry bit was aimed at the BO CoD MP, with the cartoon colored maps and 'mutant ninja turtle'-looking player characters. It went from cod looking like war, in waw and mw2, to looking like a laser tag arenas in BO, mw3, and BO2.

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anonymous    339
19 hours ago, NaBrZHunter said:

And yeah! Peter...I still need to write up a thread at least suggesting my long-winded argument about how it may not be him, even if it has some holes. I think they could still run with it and wow, there's a WHOLE OTHER STORY THERE. Agh...one of my favorite topics.

Do that, really, I'm sure many people would like that, including myself.

I really like it when people talk about the older maps, especially the WaW maps, Kino and Tranzit.

There are still so much mysteries in those.

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ZeVikingSif    0

Alrighty, mate, i've made my account as you requested from reddit. I'll copypaste everything i said, and we'll move on from there.

This is um... i know a guy who wrote deep and thought provoking rants just like you, but this... i would love to hang out with you because you shed a whole new light. I'm gonna try to counter some of these arguments as best as i can because there are times where i disagree, but this is well thought out. Amazing work, man. To avoid confusion, each paragraph matches yours in order, keep that in mind. I wouldve liked to do a reply like the ">" but there is a limit, soooo

The whole reason why we're forced into this Apothicon plot is because of Black Ops II. Whether you admit it or not, Black Ops II royally RAPED the story. Not just fucked with, not just tinkered, RAPED. While it is fun to see Buried's easter egg and all that unfold, do you really care? Like, do you really? The conclusion was so anticlimactic that while seeing the fight between them was cool, i wasn't that invested overall.

They did a clean slate, however. Only time will tell how this is going to unfold.

A great example of your analogy comes in another franchise entirely, X-Men. The third movie which is hated by pretty much all used the same exact trope. They invented classes out of nowhere just to say that the villain is "Class Omega 10 Mutant" just because of big numbers and it sounds intimidating. It's a cheap way of saying that the villains are evil and powerful and all that. Them being evil does not excuse anything. Why are they evil? What have they done? What is their motives? These questions should be answered and i think Blundell could probably do so.

This could go either two ways. If we had a human villain, he could be easily written to be anticlimactic, to be one note, to be nothing but just evil. Tell me, does Groph have anything going for him other than being smart? He's associated with Group 935, yes, but what else could he have? What his his own personal goal? We're never really told and he's just written out without going too much in-depth. The second way we could go about this is a non-human. The Overlords, like a human villain, could go either way. They could just be 'evil' or they could be so much scarier. Think of the Xenomorphs if they were much smarter than humans. Creatures who understand the world better than the humans, which make them feel smaller. A creature more powerful and has more understanding of us than we do of them. Now that could be terrifying depending on how they develop them. Obviously we might not go that route, but still, don't tell me it doesn't have potential.

I'm more of a gameplay person than a story person (I aspire to be a writer, i'm just saying for Zombies in general) but the story is a plus for me, and it could make or break a game (e.g. Origins got the worst end of it). Personally, the story i want to see is something we got hints at in Die Rise and Mob of the Dead. Do these people re-live the same day over and over Groundhog Day-style? Are they doomed to do the same thing over and over, to a never ending nightmare of infinite hordes of zombies? How do they escape this nightmare? This is what i never got in a story and it seems so much more interesting than an Apothicon storyline or Group 935. Its what gives me the creeps when i play Kino der Toten solo, are these characters stuck in Groundhog Day? Do they realize it? But anyway, could you go in depth with the The One thing? I'd love to see you spell it out but what's the dark tragic thing?

Well, again, they never went too much in-depth with this and all of this is basically your mind going off of what we got, which wasn't much. But leading to my thing from earlier, i want to see my questions answered in a better fashion and with a game devoted to it: Are they doomed to repeat Groundhog Day? The idea of just never being able to win and to do the same thing over and over. How would a human cope with such a scenario? This lends itself to dark storylines and to be honest, it never truly went there as much as i'd like it to. I mean, what if Samantha is just taunting the characters? Giving them false hope like the power ups. What if the Zombies are the characters? Anyway, your arguments are pretty darn amazing.

What added to those were the simplicity. You didn't have much complex features like the GobbleGums, it had a formula and it stuck to it. You had limitations. What if you did have Perkaholic and all the wonder weapons in a map like Verruckt. You'd feel pretty invincible, which is not the point. As a gameplay mechanic, it's good, but i'm just saying. It's all down to gameplay. What if you never had the swords or the wonder weapons or the Gobbles? What if you could go down in Beast Mode? See, if you remove these things, it could get pretty difficult and therefore scary. But the thing that ruins it for me is the enemies. This is Zombies Mode, not Cthulhu Monsters Mode. The Margwas belong in Extinction, not Zombies. And because they're so bright and colorful, it ruins it even more. Shadows of Evil could've gone in a different direction with a seemingly bright and colorful surface, but when you look into it, you're alone in a CITY full of Zombies. You have yourself only. Could've been interesting.

Maps like TranZit have that isolation element (though that map was shite), but yeah, i get your point. You completely sum it up great, there should be a sense of isolation.

Dropping meatballs from the sky? Cloudy with a chance of Meatballs map confirim?!?! No, but seriously, i agree. This was a well written thread and i would love to hang out with you, like seriously. You should make more threads cause you just write things beautifully.

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NaBrZHunter    491

Yeah, it's sad, but I wish BO2 never existed. BO3 has already outperformed BO2, IMO. Now, they weren't obligated to introduce otherworldly creatures because of that, but it was a way out. I don't really consider the BO2 N4 storyline valid. It doesn't even affect the old story except for in the end. Even Maxis' claims that he could open the rift were...empty. Nothing ever came of it. We never saw the results. It was pathetic.

Good parallel with X-men. Even though it was wishy-washy back in the days of BO1 whose side was "right," the thing that made it so was the fact that we had gotten to know the two factions (Richtofen & Gang/Maxis and Sam), but both had a clearly established and dark history. There was no question as to why either side was "evil" or "wrong". It created a great conflict for the community where we could debate justification, actions, arguing whether Richtofen was responsible for his insanity or whether Maxis deserved to be betrayed by someone like Richtofen and lose his daughter to an aethereal cosmic conflict.

It would almost seem that SoE had a similar situation, but in the end, we don't know anything about the Apothicons, and while they are touted as "evil," there is no backstory explaining why....so when it comes down, there's no reason one couldn't argue that the Apothicons were guiltless in destroying Morg City. Besides, they aren't human...how can we empathize? They can't empathize with humanity, either. 

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 Tell me, does Groph have anything going for him other than being smart? He's associated with Group 935, yes, but what else could he have? What his his own personal goal? 

Groph's backstory is from Moon in Black Ops. Again, one can feel rather torn between Richtofen and crew and Groph the same way we were torn between Maxis and Richtofen (both Nazis as well). Groph stood by his post, his goal being to do his duty and further the work of Group 935. He did what he believed was right, but in the end, he was furthering the Nazi regime, and the destruction of a Nazi moon base is the obvious course of action to be taken.

On the other hand, it could be argued that the destruction of the moon itself makes Richtofen really no better than Maxis or the test subjects. And so again, we're torn. DE was a great story...I just wish they would have left the Keepers and Dragons out of it and thought up a different boss battle. It's great for gameplay, just...anyway. You know how cool it would be if we had never seen a live Keeper, and discovered those statues down in the pyramid room? That would have been CLASSIC. The community would have RAVED. But now, we've seen the Keepers...a lot. Really, there's nothing mysterious about them anymore. But I digress.

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 Creatures who understand the world better than the humans, which make them feel smaller. A creature more powerful and has more understanding of us than we do of them. Now that could be terrifying depending on how they develop them. Obviously we might not go that route, but still, don't tell me it doesn't have potential.

Absolutely! That's what was cool about the Vril-Ya back in the day! We didn't know what they wanted, or what they were about, where they were or even if they existed anymore! We didn't know how much they knew about us, the world or technology; they were merely a shadowy presence just outside of our view, both ominous and intriguing.

But today...like I was saying above...they just float around in clouds of Aethereal flames, emitting sinister chuckles. That, to me, doesn't feel like a superior, more advanced race.

Quote

 Do these people re-live the same day over and over Groundhog Day-style? 

It's a good question, and hotly debated. I'm something of an occasional advocate of what I call the "Pocket in Time Theory" that began, I believe, at Der Riese at the moment Richtofen teleported Sam and Maxis away with Fluffy. Perhaps I shall try to reason it out soon, over in the Asylum forum....

Basically, it explains why there are endless numbers of zombies and why the clock repeatedly ticks, as well as explaining DR's abandoned state at the time of the O4's arrival there after SNN, despite the fact that the Russians had already swept the place. Believe me, the background of Group 935 and their work may very well be what's responsible for your "Groundhog Day." :)
 

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Well, again, they never went too much in-depth with this and all of this is basically your mind going off of what we got, which wasn't much.

Which part does this refer to? Sorry, got a little lost, just there.

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What if Samantha is just taunting the characters? Giving them false hope like the power ups. What if the Zombies are the characters?

These are the questions that made, and sometimes still make the Zombies storyline great. There is a discussion on this topic, though, that got a little heated that you may find interesting...ignore the initial post, it was flawed. It sets the stage for the debate that followed (also, disregard the attitude...that kind of conflict is rare here on CoDZ).

 

BTW, this statement expresses the ideal my post reaches for:

Quote

But the thing that ruins it for me is the enemies. This is Zombies Mode, not Cthulhu Monsters Mode. The Margwas belong in Extinction, not Zombies. And because they're so bright and colorful, it ruins it even more. Shadows of Evil could've gone in a different direction with a seemingly bright and colorful surface, but when you look into it, you're alone in a CITY full of Zombies. You have yourself only. Could've been interesting.

And I don't mind the Gobblegum so much, but you're right. Back  in the day, the options were slimmer. Things seemed more barren. I wish they would have given us fewer Gobblegum. If they had, I would be completely good with it.

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Dropping meatballs from the sky? Cloudy with a chance of Meatballs map confirim?!?!

HAHAHAHA! Why did I not think of this??? I grew up on that book. LOL! Respect for the reference.

 

Thanks for dragging this over here! As you can see, I used the quote feature a lot...one of the perks of format-capable text fields. Not to mention this will be here, highly accessible for future reference. It won't get as lost among millions of posts shoving it down.

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