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The Cult, the Overlords, and the Ancient Order of the Keepers

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Tac    462

Hey guys, Tac here with another thread!  I want to immediately note that this thread was a compilation effort between myself, @MrRoflWaffles, @NaBrZHunter@BlindBusDrivr, @MixMasterNut, and @Monopoly Mac, and I was just the one fortunate enough to post it.  This thread goes over the Ancient Order of the Keepers, the cult mentioned in the radios, and the Shadow Man and his associates.  Lines are then drawn between these three things and the conclusion is yours to decide until we learn more!

The Journalist begins his correspondence with Mr. Rapt by expressing feelings of uneasiness caused by strange happenings within Morg City.  From an unidentifiable mold, to a devastating sickness, he heavily implies that something is not right.  He tells the tale of a fruit seller, who is unwilling to talk at first, but eventually reveals the history of the city.  When the fruit seller was young, his uncle would tell stories of a dark force which cast its shadow over the metropolis.  He elaborates; good and evil were engaged in battle, and the only thing holding back the forces of the apocalypse was the Ancient Order of the Keepers.  This is not our first encounter with the Keepers.  First present on the battlefields of the Great War, and now too in the dimly lit streets of Morg City, they are an interdimensional race of beings devoted to preserving the status quo.

JJnVwWT.png  

The fruit seller isn’t the only person to eventually become more talkative in the Journalist’s presence. Rumors abound concerning chanting heard emanating from beneath the city.  Furthermore, the Journalist asserts that the Ancient Order of the Keepers, who we presume to be a force of good combating the nefarious motives of the Shadow Man and Overlords, is actually some kind of cult.  Crates belonging to the cult can be found in Morg City’s various districts.  Within, statues of squid-like monsters lie, waiting to be used by the player as required.


It is important to note that it is fairly likely that the Overlords are Apothicons.  Due to the fact that the Keepers have the same mouths as Margwas and tentacle-like suckers on their tongues, it’s also very likely that the Keepers are Apothicons.  This puts the Shadow Man, the Apothicons, and the Keepers in the same race/species/etc.

Acs1dog.png

Across the map, there are various sets of symbols.  The first set of symbols can be seen on the Pack-a-Punch, a broken stone disc from which upgraded weapons are delivered by an uncoiling tentacle. The origins and implications of the symbols on the disc are, as of yet, unknown.

 

A second set of symbols, which we will refer to as CONA (‘con Alphabet), can be seen inscribed on the mystery box, the Apothicon Rift Stone, the swords, the hands of our sinners, and the cultist statues. These are the marks of the Cursed and are related to the Shadow Man and his associates, likely meaning that the statues are representations of the Overlords that they worship.

 

The final, and most noticeable, set of symbols, is cuneiform.  Cuneiform appears in several places around Morg City, one of which is on the Keepers themselves.  The text is also printed on their robes, and drifts around the portal they enter through.  It can also be seen on the chained doors leading into the subway and on all the chained crates that hold the sacrifice items, cult statues, and the Apothicon Rift Stone. This implies that the cuneiform is strongly related to the Keepers, as if they employ it to serve as a warning to avoid that which they hide behind it.

 

Following his discussion of the Order, the journalist pauses, before beginning to discuss rumors of human sacrifice (his pause is indicative that it is not likely the Ancient Order or the Keepers are performing these sacrifices) in Morg City.  Additionally, the history of the subway and Sacred Place presents an interesting conundrum; which of the aforementioned groups is it associated with?  The Ancient Order can be ruled out as they chain shut all subway entrances in order to prevent us from entering (note that this does not apply to the Sacred Place).  In regards to the Sacred Place, the only sacrifices we have knowledge of are done for the benefit of the Overlords, and seeing as the room is described as sacred by The Shadow Man, it is likely fairly significant for those sympathetic to his cause.
 

So now that all background information has been presented, let’s dive into the details.  Who exactly is this chanting cult?  The options are as follows:

 

1. The Ancient Order of the Keepers is an organization, consisting of Keepers as members.  This Ancient Order itself, as an organization, is the cult, and the Keepers chant beneath the city.
 

2. The Ancient Order of the Keepers is an organization, consisting of Keepers as members.  There is a separate cult that worships the Keepers, and they chant beneath the city.
 

3. The Ancient Order of the Keepers is an organization, consisting of Keepers are members.  There is a separate cult that worships the Shadow Man and company, and they chant beneath the city.
 

For option one, an explanation must be presented for why the statues and artifacts inside the crates belong to the ‘bad’ force while the crates are listed as belonging to the cult, which option one says is the Keepers (not the ‘bad’ force).  One potential explanation is to take the “cultists crate” literally and say that the artifacts didn’t belong to the cultists and only the crates did, as if the Keepers seized the artifacts, put them in crates, and chained them up.  The question of why they put them in crates and hid them in plain sight then needs to be addressed.  In regards to subway, seeing as the only feasible options are that it either belongs to the cult or the Shadow Man and company, it must belong to the Shadow Man and company, since the Keepers are the cult and it doesn’t belong to the Keepers.
 

For option two, an explanation must be presented for why the cult mentioned is not either the Ancient Order of the Keepers or the Keepers themselves arises, as the journalist very clearly says that one of them is the cult.  Additionally, one would have to explain how this cult was able to seize the artifacts and statues.  From there, they would have to explain whether the Keepers themselves then took the crates from their cult and locked them, or if the cult themselves were somehow able to lock them.  As for subway, we said it either belonged to the cult or the Shadow Man, and if the Keepers attempted for people to not access it, it’s unlikely that it belonged to the cult that worshiped them, meaning it belonged to The Shadow Man and company.
 

For option three, similar to option two, an explanation must be given for why the cult is not either the Ancient Order of the Keepers or the Keepers themselves, as heavily implied by the journalist.  Also similar to option two, one would need to explain how this cult got hold of the artifacts and statues inside the crates.  While they belonged to those they worshiped, they are still enormously powerful objects.  At that point, after the cult had managed to acquire the artifacts and statues, option three’ers would say that the Keepers then locked these crates in hopes of preventing us to get to them.  In regards to the subway, it is undecided whether it belonged to the Shadow Man and company themselves, or simply the cult that worshiped them.
 

A conundrum that is wrapped up in each of the three options is that, if the ‘good’ force chained the crates that held the statues and artifacts belonging to the ‘bad’ force, and being the Curse is the only way to break these chains, why did the ‘good’ force make it so the only way to unlock these artifacts is by essentially being their enemy?  It’s been said that the Shadow Man and other relevant ‘bad’ forces can’t open the crates themselves and need humans, but then it would need to be explained why the cult in question could not anticipate the Shadow Man having the ability to make humans cursed.

 

If anyone has any ideas on how to fix some of the issues, or simply want to weigh in on one of the options, feel free to do so and I'll catch ya in the comments!

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Tac    462
4 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Am I allowed to present a fourth option?

Of course!  What do you have in mind?

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Guest   
Guest

Yeah can I add the fourth option of their are humans within the Ancient Order of the Keepers, that are chanting underneath the city for the Apothicon Keepers to come and help them from a prophesied future or something of the sort?

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Tac    462

So when this thread was originally written out, the option you mentioned @Nightmare Voyager was included, but for some reason I took it out.  More generally, what you're saying is combining options one and two, saying that the Ancient Order of the Keepers is essentially split into at least two levels, with the lower level (say, humans) being the cult that worships the upper level (the Keepers).  As evidence that the Keepers and the Ancient Order of the Keepers may not be the same is the journalist statement where he says "I've heard more than a few whispers about this Ancient Order and the Keepers," putting an odd emphasis on the word 'and.'  This could perhaps indicate what you're talking about, or something else entirely.  While I'm not fond of the idea of adding this variable into the Order when it can't be substantiated, I think it still has some back so I'll throw it into the original.

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Tac    462

Haha lots of time and technicalities (oh, and almost a thousand messages fired off back and forth :p)

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@Stop Mocking Me0

If you're going to make a big post like that which shifts the discussion, it probably deserves it's own thread.

But since it's here, let me just get rid of all of these misconceptions, falsehoods, and illogical assumptions, so discussion around Shadows of Evil can actually progress:

 

-Where are you getting this info about 115 in Morg City?  What evidence is there that the stairs and monorail run on 115?  There is none.  Not every electrical system runs off 115; battery-electric rail cars have been around since the early 1900s.  No need for 115 to explain any of this.  It's quite obvious that the first encounter in Morg City with 115 is the meteor shower, in which people become sick (just like every other time somebody is exposed to 115's radiation throughout zombies).  

-It helps if you use the communities shared terminology instead of making up your own, and even so your theory about the "Margs", which is what I believe we all call "The Overlords" (since that is what they are called in-game), is founded on incorrect assumptions.  The Overlords whom the Shadow Man works for are APOTHICONS.  This actually has numerous references to back it, the Apothicon rift stone, the Apothicon Servant, the Apothicon Sword, etc. The Margwas, the 'Meatballs', and the 'Parasites' (flying things), do not even appear to have an allegiance to either the Overlords or the Keepers.  No idea where you're getting this stuff about 115 being used to summon anything at all.  No idea where you're getting that Maxis has done anything to the Overlord's world.  The Overlord's are predators, that is why they are manipulating the cursed ones to open the rift and allow them passage, not to save a dying race.  The people in this version of Morg City didn't even become zombies naturally, Shadows of Evil does not take place in reality, if you watch the prologue you can see that when the characters pass out at the start, they wake up in an empty city now surrounded by zombies, and it becomes clear that this world has been constructed by the Shadowman to manipulate them into performing the deeds he needs done:

"Your world, as it was, is still here. It shifted slightly, wrenched, from it's rightful place.  Many of the souls who inhabited it have succumbed to the, darkness. They are echoes of themselves, trapped in a fractured shadow of  reality..." -Shadowman

"The Keepers[read: Shadowman, he is lying to the characters] corrupt and distort reality, providing a means for their masters to overwhelm this world." -Shadowman

 No idea where the MPD stuff is coming from either.  You made all of this up.  The MPD was a device created by the Vril-ya which offers a stable passage to 'Aether'.  It has virtually no connection to anything the Apothicons are doing.  You're drawing unnecessary parallels between the two, for example there are four sacrifices, not because the MPD had four canisters, but because there are FOUR PLAYERS.  The Moon Artifact has nothing to do with the Summoning Key, the only thing they have in common is that they are spheres.  The Moon Artifact was made by the Vril to use on their MPD, which connects our world to Aether.  The Summoning Key/Apothicon Rift Stone is a device is used for the sacrifices (by performing the sacrifice ritual it summons a gate worm), and appears to be able to provide a stable passage between  dimensions ( the key appears to act as the 'key' to open the gate once the gate worms release their energy).  They have no relation.

-You got the Keepers right for the most part, they seek  to prevent the weaknesses between the dimensions from being exploited.  Except we cannot confirm that they are in fact the cult.

-We know very little about Mr.Rapt, but it has been highly speculated that Mr.Rapt is the Shadowman, and also in each of the phone calls on the map, since they all have the same voice.  There's other posts explaining this theory more in depth which you can easily find, so I won't bother going into it here.  

-The Keepers did not plan for this to happen.  It would add another layer of complexity to the story for no reason, without any evidence.  The mural/carving in the Sacred Place shows the Keepers holding  off the forces of the Overlords with the O4, which shows that the battle between the Overlords and Keepers is ancient, not sure how that means they planned this.  Also, why would the Keepers chose Nero, Jessica, Jack, and Floyd, to join an organization who's responsibility is keeping the universe safe?  They were all complete scumbags with no morals and did whatever they could to get ahead; opportunistic sociopaths. It makes no sense why they would be the chosen ones.  And we even know for a fact that the Keepers did not chose them, as they were chosen by the Shadowman and the Overlords, hence the mark of the Beast, "you have been chosen", "you are cursed", etc.  They were chosen by the Shadowman and company because they were easy to manipulate.  The Keepers were helping them to defeat the Overlords because they were working with all that they had.  

It would seem that you have attempted to force everything to support your narrative that the Keepers planned all of this to happen, with the end-game being to recruit the four characters, which is false.  I suggest a complete re-evaluation of Shadows of Evil's story.  

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Tac    462
52 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Ok, A- I did ask.

Well, to be fair, you asked to add a fourth option about how the cult, Keepers, etc. relate to each other, which isn't exactly what you did.

52 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

There is some truth to this. The world you're in, is part of the gateway. It's the city, but it's got that weird room in the basement which is clearly interdimensional. Other then that, this map is somewhat grounded. The souls around you are zombies, and the city's residents.

Ummm, what?  You're asking if a United States metropolis was capable of utilizing propulsion in 1945?

52 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

The Overlords only applies to the massive octopus in the sky. It doesn't account for the Shadowman, nor the Margwas. Both of which are from unspecified sources. The parasites we know to come from the campaign's world. The zombies are Morg city inhabitants, after being afflicted with 115.

See now you've contradicted yourself. We know that the Margwa's heart, xenomater, and tenticle are needed to build the apothicon's servent. That being said, we can infer those things are servants of the apothicon, and thus, serve the "overloards.". 

So, because it's clear you didn't read the original post, I'll say that part again.

Quote

It is important to note that it is fairly likely that the Overlords are Apothicons.  Due to the fact that the Keepers have the same mouths as Margwas and tentacle-like suckers on their tongues, it’s also very likely that the Keepers are Apothicons.  This puts the Shadow Man, the Apothicons, and the Keepers in the same race/species/etc.

Quote

A second set of symbols, which we will refer to as CONA (‘con Alphabet), can be seen inscribed on the mystery box, the Apothicon Rift Stone, the swords, the hands of our sinners, and the cultist statues. These are the marks of the Cursed and are related to the Shadow Man and his associates, likely meaning that the statues are representations of the Overlords that they worship.

 

52 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

There is some truth to this. The world you're in, is part of the gateway. It's the city, but it's got that weird room in the basement which is clearly interdimensional. Other then that, this map is somewhat grounded. The souls around you are zombies, and the city's residents.

Or it's the room belonging to the cult that chants from beneath the city in the real world?

52 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Also.... The order of the keepers delves into human sacrifice, as stated by the reporter, They're not exactly looking for Mother Teresas. 

As it's again clear you didn't read the OP, I'll say it again:

Quote

Following this discussion of the Order, the journalist pauses, before beginning to discuss rumors of human sacrifice (his pause is indicative that it is not likely the Ancient Order or the Keepers are performing these sacrifices) in Morg City.

 

52 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Don't be so quick to slash down a theory just because you don't like it. Lord knows if you ever found out about the Shangri-la Mars theory.....

Are you fucking kidding me right now, Mocking?  You're going to sit here in this thread I create and absolutely trash on another thread I created?

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57 minutes ago, Tac said:

Well, to be fair, you asked to add a fourth option about how the cult, Keepers, etc. relate to each other, which isn't exactly what you did.

Well it required backstory. 

Quote

Ummm, what?  You're asking if a United States metropolis was capable of utilizing propulsion in 1945?

Not like the shield can. 

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So, because it's clear you didn't read the original post, I'll say that part again.

I did read the original post, I don't think the keepers are of the same race as the overlords. 

 

Quote

Or it's the room belonging to the cult that chants from beneath the city in the real world?

Or it's this world's version of the MPD. 

Quote

As it's again clear you didn't read the OP, I'll say it again:

Again, did read the OP. The rumors spread about the cult, how would the reporter even hear about the human sacrifices if not from the keepers? If the overlords had success in human sacrifices, who's to say they didn't just perform the rituals themselves with whomever was doing the killings for them?

 

Quote

Are you fucking kidding me right now, Mocking?  You're going to sit here in this thread I create and absolutely trash on another thread I created?

Wow... I feel like an asshole for not remembering it was your thread...  It was a good theory, the shangri-la one, that you clearly spent a lot of time on.... I'm not trashing it, so to speak, just showing how much theories can alter one's perception of the storyline.

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NaBrZHunter    491

@Stop Mocking Me0 "Because 115" doesn't slide. There is more to the world of technology than just Divinium. And to straight up respond to a statement made by the creator and backed by the contributors of this thread as "wrong" is cold, hard arrogance. If you're going to come into someone else's thread and hijack it with your own tome, then at least provide solid supports. Otherwise, create your own thread, and if you wish to make it a response to another, then state your intentions in the new thread.

The contributors to this thread worked for three solid days on the information used to create the OP. To respond "wrong," is bold, my friend. Bold.  

But here comes the good ol' Bus Driver. :-)

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I ask to offer my own idea. 

Tac accepts.

I offer it, it's a bit extensive, but It gets my point across. I have to write this twice as it's deleted the first time by a technical error. 

Me and Tac are discussing what I'm implying, then bus driver comes in and accuses me and my theory, which I've spent hours as well striving to piece together, of being full of falsifications. Then proceeds to point out these "falsifications" however, not one of these implementations are backed with solid evidence I can't combat. In fact he states that the zombies are both a result of dimensional travel, as well as 115 from meteors which logically, it's either one or the other.  

I have never stated Tac is wrong with his theory (only that these keepers can't automatically be labeled as "good"). 

115 is not my go-to for solutions. I've brought the concept of the MPD to the mix. Linking the whole event to the main storyline from BO1. There's more actual backing behind my solution then you're seeing. 

To state that I am being arrogant and want to highjack this thread is both rude, and false. If you wanted me to leave then ask nicely, I'll be glad to take my theory elsewhere. 

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3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Ok, A- I did ask. B-There are no misconceptions, falsehoods, or illogical assumptions. These are theories. The beauty of the storyline here is that almost half of it has been derived from nonspecific theories and discussions. Like Mob of the Dead. At first, it appeared to many people to be a normal map with odd occurrences. But now it appears to be a map set in the domain of the great evil. There's nothing in the map that outright says it, but we've drawn this conclusion from evidence in the map. 

@Stop Mocking Me0 There is a difference between theorizing and making things up while ignoring facts.  I took a break from the zombies storyline around the time Mob of the Dead was released, so I don't know what people were coming up with at the time.  All I know is that even to this day the discussion of the story behind that map is a clusterf*ck, but this is about Shadows of Evil anyway.

 

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Then explain the robot civil protectors. Or the ability to craft a rocket shield? What you expect me to believe one just FOUND a few mechanisms in a city like this capable of such propulsion?  Also look at the Meatballs. How do they get into the map? They fall from the heavens. The parasites and Margwas just teleport in, now... Why would they do that? Surely there's some significance? 

The civil protector is the one thing that's up in the air due to the fact that they have given us approximately zero background info on it and it just appears to be put in for gameplay's sake, and even so it does not necessarily have to run on 115.  Morg City is a retrofuturistic metropolis after all, so it's not far fetched that they could have a steampunk/dieselpunk robot.  Since it is not mentioned in the main narrative (and complicates due to the question of why they would need crooked cops like Vincent when they have robots that can do the job and so on), I don't worry too much about it.  As for the rocket shield, rocket technology has been around since ancient china (~1200 AD), it's not like it's some sort up super secret futurstic nazi technology.  In fact, on the map, the shields are fueled by plain old fuel canisters which you pick up around the map.  And again, what is so far fetched about a retro-futuristic city having this tech?  It's a slab of metal and glass that can ignite fuel, no need for 115.  And the Meatballs?  Hmmm, why do they fall from the sky like that.  Why it couldn't just be because A) Treyarch already came up with the code for an enemy that falls from the sky, rolls towards you, and explodes, for the campaign in the form of RAPS, and all they'd have to do is change the skin to make it work in zombies.  Or just because B) Everything else on the map randomly spawns in and these just happen to fall from the sky because of the reasons I listed above.  And I don't understand what point you're making as to it being significant that the Margwas teleport in, maybe because there isn't one and you just keep repeating it as though it means something.

 

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

The Overlords only applies to the massive octopus in the sky. It doesn't account for the Shadowman, nor the Margwas. Both of which are from unspecified sources. The parasites we know to come from the campaign's world. The zombies are Morg city inhabitants, after being afflicted with 115.

 Denial.  To insist that the Kraken in the sky is the only thing applying to the Overlords is obnoxious.  Here are some Shadowman quotes for you, and note that the Shadowman is lying to the characters about the situation, so whenever he talks about what The Keepers are trying to do, it's what he himself is trying to do:

"The Keepers corrupt and distort reality, providing a means for their Masters to overwhelm this world."

"They will not rest until this world belongs to their Overlords."

"The Keepers seek to exploit the weakness between the dimensions to allow their Masters passage to this world, you must repel their onslaught at all costs."

"Your service to the OVERLORDS is appreciated, our complete assimilation of this dimension will now, proceed."

"Your world belongs to us, the process cannot be reversed."

"Accepts your fate, and kneel before your new Masters."

 

So, for some reason you insist the only Overlords applies to a single creature, even though every single reference to Overlords/Masters is plural?  And then for some reason you claim that my explanation of the Overlords does not account for the Shadowman?  So is that why every single action taken by the Shadowman has been for the Overlords?  And is it also why the Shadowman says the Overlords thank you,  and calls it "our" dimension, referring to himself and the Overlords having control of it?  Or why the Shadowman says "your world belongs to us", again referring to himself and the Overlords?  I'm very interested to hear you explanation as to why my explanation about the Overlords cannot "account" for the Shadowman despite the fact the Shadowman explicitly stating that he is working with the Overlords to take over the dimension throughout  the game.  The Shadowman and Overlords, are all clearly from the same place, as they are all working towards the same goals.  The Margwas are also clearly involved with this as they constantly show up while you are doing rituals affiliated with the Overlords.  Go and actually read Tac's post which this thread is actually about and he explains where the same symbols show up and  what is related.

Then you say that the "parasites" are from the campaign?  I mean, they did also include the flying things in Nightmare mode (the canon of said mode is highly questionable at best), but what the hell does that have to do with Shadow of Evil?   

And yes, 115 meteors made people sick in Morg City, but we don't know if everybody turned into zombies, we really don't know what happened with that, there is no mention of it.  115 can make you sick and crazy, like what happened to Maxis due to years of exposure, but it won't necessarily turn you into a zombie.  And again, we know what happened to the inhabitants of Morg City:  "Many of the souls who inhabited it have succumbed to the, darkness. They are echoes of themselves, trapped in a fractured shadow of  reality...".  They are NOT conventional 115 zombies, they are a product what has happened to Morg City as a result of the Overlords meddling with the dimensions and displacing the souls who lived there.

 

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

See now you've contradicted yourself. We know that the Margwa's heart, xenomater, and tenticle are needed to build the apothicon's servent. That being said, we can infer those things are servants of the apothicon, and thus, serve the "overloards.". 

I have done no such thing, you simply haven't made a valid argument to refute mine.  What do the part's needed to build the Apothicon servant, have to do with what allegiance they have?  The Apothicon Servant get it's name, because it is Apothicon in origins, and SERVES whoever picks it up.  The pieces which you use to make it, just show that all of those things are apothicon in Origin.  Since the Margwas, meatballs, and parasites attack you both while you are helping the Overlords, and while you are helping the Keepers, it is difficult/impossible to determine whose side they are on, or if they even have one.  

 

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

And again here, first you say 115 caused the zombie sickness from the meteors, now you're saying it's a separate reality influenced by the shadowman's masters? Which is it? My theory is that 115 was already present, and was awoken by the "Overlords" or the keepers, leading to interdimensional rifts that caused a huge issue. When the 4 fell out, they weren't transported, the 115 around them was used to help them become one with their Marg-selves. 

I never stated that.  I said people became sick, not that they become zombies.  Could explain to everybody else here what it means for 115 to be 'awoken'? Because it looks like you're making up terms again.  We already know that the inter dimensional rift has been caused by the Overlords, it is said explicitly "they seek to exploit the weakness between dimensions".  

Your last sentence makes no sense.  Nobody but you knows what "Marg-selves" means, because you made that term up.

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

There is some truth to this. The world you're in, is part of the gateway. It's the city, but it's got that weird room in the basement which is clearly interdimensional. Other then that, this map is somewhat grounded. The souls around you are zombies, and the city's residents.

No evidence that the 'basement'(The Sacred Place) itself is inter dimensional.  If it was, then why the Overlords need you  to perform the rituals to allow them to get into our dimension, if the basement was already connected between dimensions? Doesn't make sense, and there's nothing objective to support that claim.  

 

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

The MPD is a device on the moon which works when one uses a round device combined with four sacrificial alters. I should also mention the Shadow man describes the summoning key as the most powerful artifact in any universe. On moon, you need to send the ball of almost the exact same look, size, and pattern to A-open the MPD, and B-Send to maxis to launch the 3 world-destroying nukes. To me that sounds like an artifact of unimaginable power. See the connection? 

The MPD was made by the Vril.  It is based on the lore of the Vril Ya.  The Inter-dimensional stuff in Shadows of Evil surrounds the Apothicons and is based on the Cthulhu Mythos.  They are completely different.  Again, the MPD is Vril in it's origin and is a "stable gateway to Aether", Richthofen's exact words.  The exact purpose of the Artifact on Moon is unknown, all we know is it is used to open the pyramid and Maxis needed it before he sent the rockets.  They are roughly the same size, but they do not have the same pattern or appearance at all.  We see the Summoning Key's round pieces fly off into shurikens/blades/whatever and fly around during the sacrifice rituals, and then the energy of the sacrificed flows into it.  There is nothing like that happening with the Moon Artifact, is just f*cking chills underground, then it chills in the pyramid, then you throw a gersch device at it a couple times and it moves.  We have no idea what it's purpose is, just that it allows the pyramid to work, and that Maxis wants it.  

And here you go trying to draw this parallel here again between the two.  The Summoning Key aka The Apothicon Rift Stone literally allows the Overlords into the dimension.  While the Moon Artifact was just kind of along for the ride whilst MAXIS was the one who took over the computers, overrode the rocket's guidance systems, and launched them at Earth.  The Summoning Key and the Moon Artifact, going off of all of the information new have at this time, are NOT related.  

 

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Also the amount of characters doesn't change the amount of sacrifices needed. 

The MPD is also used to control the zombies. But more noticeably, it's used to control the map elements. Look at the box, and the horrible squid-faced teddy. When richtofen takes over the box gets a new noise. When maxis takes over the same thing happens. Owning the MPD, means owning the ability to control the zombies world. Logically, the "overlords" as you put it are in control of a MPD. 

Except we can. By the Reporter. Who specifically says "The ancient order of the keepers". The cult worship the keepers. Meaning they approve. 

The amount of sacrifices is based on the number of characters.  I don't see how you cannot understand this.  In storyline terms there are always four players.  This is like arguing that in Ascension, or Shangri La or whatever, only Dempsey might have been there, because you start up a solo game as Dempsey.  Doesn't work like that.  There is  a sacrifice specifically made for each of the characters, based on where they commit their sins, and a person who they knew.  

Except the Overlords are not in control of the MPD. We don't even know what has happened with the MPD in this universe or if it even exists.  This is not even normal Morg City, is has been displaced by the Overlords meddling between dimensions.  The Overlords appear to be in charge of this world, because it has been shifted from it's normal place, and they are able to distort the reality seen by the 4 characters we play as.  

"The Keepers (the Shadowman) corrupt and distort reality, providing a means for their Masters to disrupt this world."

The Report says he has heard of the "Ancient Order and  The Keepers" by talking to people.  He says he think it's some kind a cult.  Not that it is, but he thinks.  Then follows up by saying "They say you can hear them (the cult) chanting sometimes, beneath the city." This does not prove the Keepers are the Cult, or that the cult favors the Keepers.  If anything his next line, "There's all these rumors about human sacrifice and freaky shit", supports the idea that the cult is actually affiliated with the Overlords, whom we already know are fond of Human Sacrifice.

 

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

This is a theory saying Mr. Rapt is not the shadow man, but rather the keepers. 

Actually they arn't sociopaths, look back at the cop after you kill his partner. "Taking out that squealer wasn't hard... But my partner?.... He didn't deserve that.... 

In fact, almost all of the 4 regret killing the person they sacrificed.  A real psychopath would have no implementation of right or wrong as long as they got their way. 

Also.... The order of the keepers delves into human sacrifice, as stated by the reporter, They're not exactly looking for Mother Teresas. 

  Except there is literally no evidence that Mr.Rapt is affiliated with The Keepers in any way and you are just making a baseless speculation to support your idea, while there are better one that actually go along with existing evidence.  

You can argue my use of the word sociopath, but that is really irrelevant to my point.  Even if they did feel bad, they still did those things.  Jessica killed a man without second thought and didn't even flinch.  She had no issue manipulating people.  Jack was okay with letting innocent people go to prison or worse, in exchange for bribes.  He had no problem killing people either.  Floyd was willing to end another man's career and possibly his life, so he could get a title shot which he didn't deserve.  Nero was a hopelessly arrogant narcissist who killed is wife to get out of debt (she was no angel but that's not the point).  Each one of them stood for nothing except their own personal gains.  To argue that the 4 characters on this map were good people, is like arguing that John Wayne Gacey would have made a good babysitter.

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

The keepers are the superior beings, they would never allow four idiots to be able to stumble in, sacrifice 4 people, and bring the Margs (yes I will continue to call them that) to the world. They're a hyper-intelligent force, you think it's by chance that the keepers put up little to no effort in stopping you? When the world gets taken over that they just sit around and wait for  YOU to piece together the puzzles? The Margs are evil, but their plans aren't well thought out, otherwise how would four idiots be able to stop them with little to no help from the Keepers? The keepers are after the prime directive, not the typical goal: And to do this they need fresh agents. 

 There's no evidence they are hyper-intelligent, you are just making yet another illogical assumption. Bravo.  You're right, The Keepers would never chose these idiots to save the world, that's why the SHADOWMAN and the OVERLORDS chose them to DOOM that dimension.  

And what did you expect from a Zombies map?  Of coarse we are going to have to piece together everything and figure it out.  And for you to say that the Keepers sat around and did nothing is rather strange considering they: attempt to stop you at every attempt to aid the Shadowman, then they Allow you to get the swords, upgrade the swords, and ultimately take down his shield so you can sacrifice him, and in  the end they banish the Shadowman and Overlords and close the Rift.  The characters on the map did a lot of the legwork, but the Keepers did a lot too, considering Treyarch can't just have them go and do everything or else we wouldn't have a f*cking zombies map.

Again, you entire "theory" rests on the premise that the Keepers need 'fresh agents', which is a completely baseless asseration.  There is no evidence of that whatsoever.  If they are a superior alien race as you state, why would they need 4 human goons as their new agents to protect the dimensions?! It makes ZERO sense.  And there is literally no evidence to support this theory, when it is already made clear by everything that the Shadowman and the Overlords chose the characters and planned all of this, only for the Keepers to show up and rain on their parade.  

What is happening here, is you seem to be suffering from the 'Confirmation Bias':

Quote

Confirmation bias is a phenomenon wherein decision makers have been shown to actively seek out and assign more weight to evidence that confirms their hypothesis, and ignore or underweigh evidence that could disconfirm their hypothesis.

You have been twisting any and all available information (and even coming up with some astounding assumptions) you can to fit your "theory", which is that the Keepers had all this happen to gain a new group of dysfunctional recruits, and disregarding anything which goes against this idea.

 

Like I said before, you need to completely re-evaluate the Shadows of Evil story.  (By the looks of it, you should also check up on your understanding of fundamental aspects of the zombies storyline)

 

3 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Don't be so quick to slash down a theory just because you don't like it. Lord knows if you ever found out about the Shangri-la Mars theory.....

 

I slash down theories which have no support, are founded on false and/or baseless assertions, and which distract from actually progressing our understanding of the storyline.  And some Shangri-La Mars theory from 4+ years ago is irrelevant.  

 

Here is a good place to start with learning the basics:  http://www.callofdutyzombies.com/index.php?/topic/139175-transcripts-of-zombies-radios-journals-cinematics-and-letters/

Enjoy!

 

Regards,
BlindBusDriver

 

Edited by BlindBusDrivr
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I'd hate to clutter up anything else on tac's thread. I made my own. 
And deleted it because honestly if Bus driver is going to spend that much time on a warpath with my one theory, while bringing nothing else to the table, and insulting my understanding, which apparently is greater than his if I was actually here for the discussions of MOTD and Origins alike, then I'm glad to just forget about it entirely. 

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I don't want to anger anyone or derail this topic anymore, if you want I can delete this message but I just wanted to point out an easter egg with the Civil Protector where his badge on his chest says 115. Might just be an EE but you never know, just wanted to point that out.

Anyways after MrRoflwaffles pointed out this new code that translates too: Although they have discovered the way Primis will fail. So I am wondering if this ancient war between the Keepers and the Apothicons that seems to have happened, failed. I believe that their will be a map literally named Primis where we play as the YO4 and go back to this war, but we have an EE where we either fail or win the war to contribute towards unraveling the story. I just wanted to point this out because it seemed to be important to this storyline of the Apothicons vs. Keepers.

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Tac    462
12 hours ago, Nightmare Voyager said:

I don't want to anger anyone or derail this topic anymore, if you want I can delete this message but I just wanted to point out an easter egg with the Civil Protector where his badge on his chest says 115. Might just be an EE but you never know, just wanted to point that out.

Anyways after MrRoflwaffles pointed out this new code that translates too: Although they have discovered the way Primis will fail. So I am wondering if this ancient war between the Keepers and the Apothicons that seems to have happened, failed. I believe that their will be a map literally named Primis where we play as the YO4 and go back to this war, but we have an EE where we either fail or win the war to contribute towards unraveling the story. I just wanted to point this out because it seemed to be important to this storyline of the Apothicons vs. Keepers.

Nah I appreciate it, thank ya :)

I saw that, and I too am curious as to its meaning.  I'm not caught up with Primis, in my mind that is, and I haven't spent really any time at all thinking about it, so with this new note I'm definitely gonna have to go think about it a bit.  

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InfestLithium    515
14 hours ago, Nightmare Voyager said:

Anyways after MrRoflwaffles pointed out this new code that translates too: Although they have discovered the way Primis will fail. So I am wondering if this ancient war between the Keepers and the Apothicons that seems to have happened, failed. I believe that their will be a map literally named Primis where we play as the YO4 and go back to this war, but we have an EE where we either fail or win the war to contribute towards unraveling the story. I just wanted to point this out because it seemed to be important to this storyline of the Apothicons vs. Keepers.

I was actually discussing it in a Skype chat with some friendos and that message really concerned me; why would an ancient event between good and evil that already occurred in the past be said to fail, especially in future tense? It seems that this ancient war is coming once again and will be repeated; except now, the Ancient Evil has been unleashed and this time wants to stop the process from occurring again.

My original assumption was that Richtofen wrote these ciphers as some sort of back-end journal or log reference. But seeing this note makes it feel so...negative and uncomfortable. Why would Primus fail? Why would locking away the Ancient Evil fail, and are were attempting to replay the events which occurred so many centuries ago? That just led me to believe something else wrote these...perhaps Shadow Man himself or another with darker intentions. Or just a party-pooper.

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12 hours ago, InfestLithium said:

I was actually discussing it in a Skype chat with some friendos and that message really concerned me; why would an ancient event between good and evil that already occurred in the past be said to fail, especially in future tense? It seems that this ancient war is coming once again and will be repeated; except now, the Ancient Evil has been unleashed and this time wants to stop the process from occurring again.

My original assumption was that Richtofen wrote these ciphers as some sort of back-end journal or log reference. But seeing this note makes it feel so...negative and uncomfortable. Why would Primus fail? Why would locking away the Ancient Evil fail, and are were attempting to replay the events which occurred so many centuries ago? That just led me to believe something else wrote these...perhaps Shadow Man himself or another with darker intentions. Or just a party-pooper.

I am hoping that what it is alluding to is that it did fail in the past loop, which all this time loop stuff does exist still since Maxis last mentioned it in Origins, but in this one we are going to do stuff so that it doesn't when we get to that point.

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83457    263

(Tiptoes in, opines): 

The cthulu crates have New York stamped on them, and the chains would be for hooking to a crane for large crates such as this. So they appear to have been delivered, not bound up.

(Backs away slowly).

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51 minutes ago, 83457 said:

(Tiptoes in, opines): 

The cthulu crates have New York stamped on them, and the chains would be for hooking to a crane for large crates such as this. So they appear to have been delivered, not bound up.

(Backs away slowly).

That'd make sense. Although I think it's a little weird where the crates ended up, two of which were strown about on high rafters, another in the arms of a crane, and the last one behind a metal grate in the canals. 

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83457    263
2 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

That'd make sense. Although I think it's a little weird where the crates ended up, two of which were strown about on high rafters, another in the arms of a crane, and the last one behind a metal grate in the canals. 

I may have been confused, and then confused you.

I was referencing the large crates that the Statues are in, I was not thinking of the other boxes.

I'm thinking small boxes= Shadowman/Overlords for rituals. 

Large Statue crates= keeper's stuff for you to use against Shadowman and co.

Both are in this 'shifted' world and so don't make 100% sense as to their locations or means of being transported to where we find them. Obviously our ways of interacting with them are otherworldly or supernatural, further pulling them from a rational explanation.

 

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Tac    462
20 hours ago, 83457 said:

I may have been confused, and then confused you.

I was referencing the large crates that the Statues are in, I was not thinking of the other boxes.

I'm thinking small boxes= Shadowman/Overlords for rituals. 

Large Statue crates= keeper's stuff for you to use against Shadowman and co.

Both are in this 'shifted' world and so don't make 100% sense as to their locations or means of being transported to where we find them. Obviously our ways of interacting with them are otherworldly or supernatural, further pulling them from a rational explanation.

What about the fact that the statues have the marks/symbols of the Shadow Man?  The marks signify to me that they'd belong to the Shadow Man and his associates.

0jk7A6I.png

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83457    263
1 hour ago, Tac said:

What about the fact that the statues have the marks/symbols of the Shadow Man?  The marks signify to me that they'd belong to the Shadow Man and his associates.

0jk7A6I.png

Either the marks are universal to both groups, or my theory is poo. Thanks for pointing this out as i hadn't noticed.

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On 12/5/2015 at 7:32 PM, Tac said:

Hey guys, Tac here with another thread!  I want to immediately note that this thread was a compilation effort between myself, @MrRoflWaffles, @NaBrZHunter@BlindBusDrivr, @MixMasterNut, and @Monopoly Mac, and I was just the one fortunate enough to post it.  This thread goes over the Ancient Order of the Keepers, the cult mentioned in the radios, and the Shadow Man and his associates.  Lines are then drawn between these three things and the conclusion is yours to decide until we learn more!

The Journalist begins his correspondence with Mr. Rapt by expressing feelings of uneasiness caused by strange happenings within Morg City.  From an unidentifiable mold, to a devastating sickness, he heavily implies that something is not right.  He tells the tale of a fruit seller, who is unwilling to talk at first, but eventually reveals the history of the city.  When the fruit seller was young, his uncle would tell stories of a dark force which cast its shadow over the metropolis.  He elaborates; good and evil were engaged in battle, and the only thing holding back the forces of the apocalypse was the Ancient Order of the Keepers.  This is not our first encounter with the Keepers.  First present on the battlefields of the Great War, and now too in the dimly lit streets of Morg City, they are an interdimensional race of beings devoted to preserving the status quo.

JJnVwWT.png  

The fruit seller isn’t the only person to eventually become more talkative in the Journalist’s presence. Rumors abound concerning chanting heard emanating from beneath the city.  Furthermore, the Journalist asserts that the Ancient Order of the Keepers, who we presume to be a force of good combating the nefarious motives of the Shadow Man and Overlords, is actually some kind of cult.  Crates belonging to the cult can be found in Morg City’s various districts.  Within, statues of squid-like monsters lie, waiting to be used by the player as required.


It is important to note that it is fairly likely that the Overlords are Apothicons.  Due to the fact that the Keepers have the same mouths as Margwas and tentacle-like suckers on their tongues, it’s also very likely that the Keepers are Apothicons.  This puts the Shadow Man, the Apothicons, and the Keepers in the same race/species/etc.

Acs1dog.png

Across the map, there are various sets of symbols.  The first set of symbols can be seen on the Pack-a-Punch, a broken stone disc from which upgraded weapons are delivered by an uncoiling tentacle. The origins and implications of the symbols on the disc are, as of yet, unknown.

 

A second set of symbols, which we will refer to as CONA (‘con Alphabet), can be seen inscribed on the mystery box, the Apothicon Rift Stone, the swords, the hands of our sinners, and the cultist statues. These are the marks of the Cursed and are related to the Shadow Man and his associates, likely meaning that the statues are representations of the Overlords that they worship.

 

The final, and most noticeable, set of symbols, is cuneiform.  Cuneiform appears in several places around Morg City, one of which is on the Keepers themselves.  The text is also printed on their robes, and drifts around the portal they enter through.  It can also be seen on the chained doors leading into the subway and on all the chained crates that hold the sacrifice items, cult statues, and the Apothicon Rift Stone. This implies that the cuneiform is strongly related to the Keepers, as if they employ it to serve as a warning to avoid that which they hide behind it.

 

Following his discussion of the Order, the journalist pauses, before beginning to discuss rumors of human sacrifice (his pause is indicative that it is not likely the Ancient Order or the Keepers are performing these sacrifices) in Morg City.  Additionally, the history of the subway and Sacred Place presents an interesting conundrum; which of the aforementioned groups is it associated with?  The Ancient Order can be ruled out as they chain shut all subway entrances in order to prevent us from entering (note that this does not apply to the Sacred Place).  In regards to the Sacred Place, the only sacrifices we have knowledge of are done for the benefit of the Overlords, and seeing as the room is described as sacred by The Shadow Man, it is likely fairly significant for those sympathetic to his cause.
 

So now that all background information has been presented, let’s dive into the details.  Who exactly is this chanting cult?  The options are as follows:

 

1. The Ancient Order of the Keepers is an organization, consisting of Keepers as members.  This Ancient Order itself, as an organization, is the cult, and the Keepers chant beneath the city.
 

2. The Ancient Order of the Keepers is an organization, consisting of Keepers as members.  There is a separate cult that worships the Keepers, and they chant beneath the city.
 

3. The Ancient Order of the Keepers is an organization, consisting of Keepers are members.  There is a separate cult that worships the Shadow Man and company, and they chant beneath the city.
 

For option one, an explanation must be presented for why the statues and artifacts inside the crates belong to the ‘bad’ force while the crates are listed as belonging to the cult, which option one says is the Keepers (not the ‘bad’ force).  One potential explanation is to take the “cultists crate” literally and say that the artifacts didn’t belong to the cultists and only the crates did, as if the Keepers seized the artifacts, put them in crates, and chained them up.  The question of why they put them in crates and hid them in plain sight then needs to be addressed.  In regards to subway, seeing as the only feasible options are that it either belongs to the cult or the Shadow Man and company, it must belong to the Shadow Man and company, since the Keepers are the cult and it doesn’t belong to the Keepers.
 

For option two, an explanation must be presented for why the cult mentioned is not either the Ancient Order of the Keepers or the Keepers themselves arises, as the journalist very clearly says that one of them is the cult.  Additionally, one would have to explain how this cult was able to seize the artifacts and statues.  From there, they would have to explain whether the Keepers themselves then took the crates from their cult and locked them, or if the cult themselves were somehow able to lock them.  As for subway, we said it either belonged to the cult or the Shadow Man, and if the Keepers attempted for people to not access it, it’s unlikely that it belonged to the cult that worshiped them, meaning it belonged to The Shadow Man and company.
 

For option three, similar to option two, an explanation must be given for why the cult is not either the Ancient Order of the Keepers or the Keepers themselves, as heavily implied by the journalist.  Also similar to option two, one would need to explain how this cult got hold of the artifacts and statues inside the crates.  While they belonged to those they worshiped, they are still enormously powerful objects.  At that point, after the cult had managed to acquire the artifacts and statues, option three’ers would say that the Keepers then locked these crates in hopes of preventing us to get to them.  In regards to the subway, it is undecided whether it belonged to the Shadow Man and company themselves, or simply the cult that worshiped them.
 

A conundrum that is wrapped up in each of the three options is that, if the ‘good’ force chained the crates that held the statues and artifacts belonging to the ‘bad’ force, and being the Curse is the only way to break these chains, why did the ‘good’ force make it so the only way to unlock these artifacts is by essentially being their enemy?  It’s been said that the Shadow Man and other relevant ‘bad’ forces can’t open the crates themselves and need humans, but then it would need to be explained why the cult in question could not anticipate the Shadow Man having the ability to make humans cursed.

 

If anyone has any ideas on how to fix some of the issues, or simply want to weigh in on one of the options, feel free to do so and I'll catch ya in the comments!

What about Primis and the ancient beings that controls the mystery box and PaP

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Tac    462

Just for the sake of people scrolling through the thread, is there any chance that you can edit your post and take out the quote @AresTheAncient? It takes up quite a bit of room :p

As for your question, I'm a little confused. Are you asking how PRIMIS and the Apothicons are connected to each other, or something else?

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