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We had the timeline wrong?

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I can't believe nobody has made a post about this yet, but from the way the characters speak in the Giant and what is shown, it would seem if the O4 hadn't came and intervened then Richtofen would go wake up the others and survive in Der Riese. Makes sense since the Wudnerwaffe had to be there first and then the characters survive their until they get to Shi No Numa right? So even though Shi No Numa was thought to become before, maybe it doesn't? But then, what is with the Kino radio where he says the Wunderwaffe overcharged the teleporter?

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The whole idea of SNN coming after Der Riese sounds good at first, but ultimately doesn't really makes sense as we are told by the Kino loading screen/monologue from Rictofan that the DG2 overloaded the teleporter at Der Riese, or what is assumed to be Der Riese because as far as I know, there are no teleporters in SNN or any of the other W@W maps.

I believe what happened was the zombie outbreak, as seen in The Giant occurs shortly after Maxis and Samantha are teleported, Rictofen wakes up the test subjects and guides them to SNN presumably for Rictofen to pick up some research notes and whatnot, maybe some of that sweet 115 from the meteor lying outside the map. He then takes them back to Der Riese for whatever else he forgot to grab from there and while trying to fight their way out, they happen to blast the DG2 right as they teleported, thus arriving at Kino and the rest is more or less clear. Until BO2 anyway.

Edited by Kill_All_Monkeys
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NaBrZHunter    489

I gotta agree with @Kill_All_Monkeys. It really did sound good at the outset, but in the end it does contradict what we know. I invoke Dempsey's pack-a-punch musings while at Ascension. SNN is the first thing he recalls after waking up.

"Richtofen...I don't like him. I think I've seen him before Shi No Numa, but I don't remember. In fact, I don't remember much at all from before."

 

I still need to pow-wow with you about this stuff when my laptop arrives.

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Thats weird though, I mean I came to the same conclusion but they leave Der Riese and then come back after what seems like a pointless zombie map? Unless they survive at Der Riese twice and they don't remember the first time, it wouldn't make much sense.

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NaBrZHunter    489

Thats weird though, I mean I came to the same conclusion but they leave Der Riese and then come back after what seems like a pointless zombie map? Unless they survive at Der Riese twice and they don't remember the first time, it wouldn't make much sense.

It may have just been Treyarch beginning to form a story and wanting to wrap up WAW with a bang. I dunno. I mean, based on The Giant, they were kept at Der Riese while being tested. So that would mean DR->SNN->DR-KDT-etc, etc. But remember, they seemingly "met" Richtofen at SNN. They don't recall how they got there, so they don't remember being kept at Der Riese. A real pickle.

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Thats weird though, I mean I came to the same conclusion but they leave Der Riese and then come back after what seems like a pointless zombie map? Unless they survive at Der Riese twice and they don't remember the first time, it wouldn't make much sense.

It may have just been Treyarch beginning to form a story and wanting to wrap up WAW with a bang. I dunno. I mean, based on The Giant, they were kept at Der Riese while being tested. So that would mean DR->SNN->DR-KDT-etc, etc. But remember, they seemingly "met" Richtofen at SNN. They don't recall how they got there, so they don't remember being kept at Der Riese. A real pickle.

True true. Maybe Richtofen wipes their memories and they start getting memories at Shi No Numa. That could come into play with the Giant too and the O3 + whoever else will join them are going to reference the horrible time they had being tested on.

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Shooter    83

Oddly enough, there is no concrete evidence of what order Der Riese and SNN occur. With all the other maps, we know the order based on character quotes from each map. But pretty much all signs point to SNN occuring first.

The biggest argument for SNN being before Der Riese is the comic book page seen in the loading screen of Kino Der Toten. According to the page the order was clearly NDU, Verrukt, SNN, Der  Riese. But the comic book images can be subjective for some people.

We also need to remember what we're seeing in the Giant trailer is  not what happened in the original timeline. If we started fighting the undead and traveling through time right after Richtofen betrayed Maxis, I doubt Richtofen would have had the opportunity to contact Griffin Station.

Edward Richtofen: (Static) “How did she end up there? No matter, I know what must be done. In the meantime see if you can find Dr. Maxis, perhaps he can talk some sense into her.”

Dr. Groph: “Did you not deal with him already?”

Edward Richtofen: “Yes, but if the child ended up here, then Maxis must be somewhere too. Find him.”

Dr. Groph: “How do you propose-”

Edward Richtofen: “Dr Groph I cannot do everything for you. I leave this in your capable hands. There is much to be done.”

Dr. Groph: “Yes, Doctor.”

Edward Richtofen: “Oh and Groph?”

Dr. Groph: “Yes?”

Edward Richtofen: "I'd keep an eye out for an evil looking dog while you're at it.” (Static)

And as the other guys have stated, what most likely occured is Richtofen and the O3 traveled to SNN and then back to Der Riese at some point.

The way I see it, shortly after the two were betrayed, the Americans and Russians closed in on Der Riese. We know based off of the "WMD" intel from Black Ops that a "massacre" occurred at Der Riese which led to a standoff with American troops. To avoid capture, Richtofen took the O3 to SNN.

They eventually return to Der Riese to use the MTD, but when they arrive they are attacked by zombies once more. In an effort to survive, the O4 jump into the MTD with the Wunderwaffe and go forward in time to Kino.

As far as where the O4 were when Richtofen originally betrayed Sam and Maxis, it's not clear. The last known location of his test subjects was Eagle's Nest (aka CotD). Whether Richtofen took them to Der Riese or kept them at CotD or SNN was never clear. But based on the Giant trailer, it would seem he took them to Der Riese.

Sorry for being all over the place with this post. WAW and BO discussion just gets me going.

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Eagles Nest is Der Riese, just saying. It makes sense to keep them at Der Riese after wherever they were before, he can get to that location easily.

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Shooter    83

Eagles Nest is Der Riese, just saying. It makes sense to keep them at Der Riese after wherever they were before, he can get to that location easily.

Actually the location of "Eagle's Nest" has never been completely confirmed.

However, it is unlikely that it was Der Riese. In one of Moon's radios, we hear Richtofen say that they've "toiled for years here(Griffin Station) and at Eagle's Nest to build up fortifications. They did this behind Maxis' back. And given Maxis was in charge at Der Riese, I doubt they could of built up fortifications without Maxis finding out.

Which leaves 3 options: SNN, Shangri La, and CotD. All three were 935 bases. SNN is very unlikely. It could have been Shangri La, but the wonder weapon on that map was built by Maxis which suggests he was there at some point. 

The only logical choice in my opinion is CotD. And considering how much time Richtofen and his test subjects spent there during that time period, it would make sense.

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NaBrZHunter    489

Thank you, @Shooter. So solid.

I gotta agree about Eagle's Nest being the Siberian base. That would explain his actions. Protocol 935 at Der Riese -> Proceed to Eagle's Nest to contact Griffin Station for a status update and retrieve test subjects  -> Transport them to SNN -> meet them at SNN to begin staging the ruse*  -> Return to Der Riese -> Flee via MPD.

 

*What better place than SNN? It was in Japan, Dempsey was a Marine on the Pacific front, Nickolai was a Russian, American ally, and of course Russia had its' pacific front as well, while Takeo is, obviously, Japanese, all of which would reduce suspicion when they find themselves in a Japanese jungle. So in order to create a believable ruse, between Der Riese, the Siberian Base, and Shi No Numa, the latter would be the best place to start. Otherwise, the three would wonder how they ended up in the middle of Nazi Germany or some remote German hideout in Siberia.

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No... the radio he says the built up fortifications and stole lab equipment from the eagles nest, under Maxis' nose. It makes no sense for it to be Siberia where we have no evidence of maxis being. We know he was at Der Riese though and that the teleports had a direct link there. Basically he says they lived a double life, one at Moon and one at Der Riese doing all of those exp ermines. Its too far fetched for it to be at Siberia or anywhere else really.

 

Also you contradicted yourself hunter, we already came to the conclusion that if they were at Der Riese before (which the Giant clearly shows they are) then they would not really retain memories of it because they go to Shi No Numa and thats their first memories. In the trailer, Dempsey even makes reference to them arriving at Shi No Numa by saying something like "so this is the place."

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Shooter    83

Honestly the most plausible place would be CotD, because of Maxis' lack of presence there. "Under his nose" is just referring to the fact he was using one of Group 935's bases without Maxis' knowledge, even though Maxis was suppose to be in charge of Group 935. Which is exactly why Richtofen used CotD, because Maxis never went there.

You have to think about the massive amount of equipment they were teleporting to Griffin Station over the years. It would of been nearly impossible for Richtofen to pull that off from Der Riese.

Richtofen spent a lot his time at CotD, not just testing on the O3 (which we know from CotD radios), but also sending things to Griffin Station. Meanwhile, Maxis was at Der Riese and Kino attempting to control the undead and supposedly mass producing the DG2.

It's between Der Riese and CotD, as they are the only two Group 935 bases with known MTDs. And given that Richtofen spent most of his time at CotD, and that Maxis spent most of his time at Der Riese, CotD is the logical choice in my opinion.

 

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NaBrZHunter    489

If you have a radio that proves me wrong-you know me, I will step right down off my soap box. :-) @Nightmare Voyager 

you're referring to the SNN radio? I need to give it another listen. And yeah, you're right, he does say 'this is the place.'

But again, @Shooter makes a good point. They could not have teleported all that equipment from Der Riese. He could not have risked Maxis finding out that he knew how to calibrate a teleporter. Which brings us to the question, which teleporter did he use? Where was the original prototype?

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The statement about doing stuff right under Maxis' nose I believe is reference to the fact that they were moving stuff through the teleporter without Maxis realizing the capabilities of the teleporter at the time, I recall one of the Moon radios having Rictofen mention how they had been using the teleporter for a while now and Maxis had no idea it was even close to being that functional. So in my humble opinion, Eagle's Nest was in fact located someplace that wasn't Der Riese.

The two known spots left up for debate are SNN and CotD. I believe it must first be said that there is a possibility Eagle's Nest is actually somewhere we never visited. The only shred of evidence supporting this is the fact that the O3 began recovering their memories over time, and seeing the place where they were tortured and experimented on would certainly bring back some painful memories I think. And while we've not gotten a whole lot of exposition from the O4 as a whole, none of them ever mention anything about how they remember being tortured at (insert map here).

Personally I believe it's CotD, as the above somewhat also supports this. When the O4 teleported to CotD following their Ascension shennanigans, they never actually see any part of the base other then the room they were locked in, which they eventually get teleported directly out of back in time to Shangri La. And I doubt hardly any, if any at all, experiments took place in the teleporter room. The other big connection being CotD is the map where we also find the radios detailing some of the experiments themselves. Now while this is not concrete proof, almost every map we've gotten radios on, they were recorded at the very place the map takes place in.

In regards to which map takes place first between SNN and Der Riese, I don't beleive we'll ever find an answer in any of the old maps as Treyarch probably did not have the story fully mapped out at that point. And whatever outline they did have has most certainly changed by now. I would also like to point out that while I accept the possibility of the comic page from Kino not necessarily being in chronological order, being an avid comic reader myself who has looked a lot into how comics are made, generally when comics are formatted in that manner it means the panels chronologically happen from left to right, top to bottom. There is always a certain unforseen variable when it comes to Treyarch but I have no reason to believe for the moment that they would mess with that format.

Edited by Kill_All_Monkeys
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If you have a radio that proves me wrong-you know me, I will step right down off my soap box. :-) @Nightmare Voyager 

you're referring to the SNN radio? I need to give it another listen. And yeah, you're right, he does say 'this is the place.'

But again, @Shooter makes a good point. They could not have teleported all that equipment from Der Riese. He could not have risked Maxis finding out that he knew how to calibrate a teleporter. Which brings us to the question, which teleporter did he use? Where was the original prototype?

Its a Moon radio, just google black ops moon radios and the transcripts on wikia should be there. I was listening and reading them while I wrote my message :P

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PINNAZ    478

Gotta love a good olde theory thread!

 

Shi No Numa to Moon was all about collecting things. The maps occur in the order they were released.

Richtofen seems to have spent a lot of time at SNN, Der Riese, Call of the Dead, Shangri-la & Moon prior to when the maps occur in game.

 

I've always assumed "Eagles Nest" is CotD. That was where he perfected the MTD (after the teleportation of the Walnut at Der Riese & without Maxis' knowledge) & took his test subjects (which weren't Zombies) after the Verrückt outbreak. He knew of the OSS Spies Peter (SNN) & Harvey Yena (CotD)

 

Maxis may have never known about "Phychiachtric" Dr. Rictofen who experimented on living humans. Maxis' Test subjects were Dead humans. Maxis may have just thought Richtofen was a weapons builder.

 

After Richtofen touched the MPD, the "Evil within" tells him what he needs to do to enter it. He then teleports Maxis, Sam & Fluffy & makes the "Shield Active". That unleashes the Zombies which destroys the Der Riese Mainframe.

 

• He goes back to Shi No Numa to collect the Raygun & the DG-2.

• He goes back to Der Riese to fix the Mainframe, overloads it & goes to Kino.

• No idea what he collects from Kino? I Don't think he had never been there before.

• Gersch device from Ascension

• Golden Rod from CotD

• Focusing stone from Shangri-la

• And back to Moon to enter the MPD

All of that just to enter the MPD.

 

• Black Ops 2 Towers get activated

• Maxis gets released into Agartha

 

With Maxis now in Agartha, he sends the O4 into Der Riese just after Richtofen has teleported Maxis & Sam to the Moon (Giant cutscene). Origins Richtofen shoots Der Riese Rictoden. Maxis can now enter the MPD for good. This changes everything. The shield is never activated, Peter may not have been killed yet. etc etc. Everything Richtofen did after Teleporting Maxis, Sam & Fluffy never occurred.

 

I think we might go back to SNN & show the story of what happened prior. Perhaps Treyarch have been hinting at this. Treyarch's first social media appearance this year was the image of the "Blue 115 Meteor". Could this be because of the influence of Maxis & the relation to the Blue 115 in Origins? Things are slightly different. The prequel to everything before SNN is finally being filled in. 

 

Treyarch are sneaky like that, they will hint at things right from the start, right "Under your nose!!!"

 

Like any Zombies Theory, there are a million holes. I still can't piece together why there are WWI & WWII characters. It still makes no sense to me. And how did they end up at SNN in the first place. So many tangents in this Zombies story. 

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NaBrZHunter    489

If you have a radio that proves me wrong-you know me, I will step right down off my soap box. :-) @Nightmare Voyager 

you're referring to the SNN radio? I need to give it another listen. And yeah, you're right, he does say 'this is the place.'

But again, @Shooter makes a good point. They could not have teleported all that equipment from Der Riese. He could not have risked Maxis finding out that he knew how to calibrate a teleporter. Which brings us to the question, which teleporter did he use? Where was the original prototype?

Its a Moon radio, just google black ops moon radios and the transcripts on wikia should be there. I was listening and reading them while I wrote my message :P

Okay, I'll take a listen. I pretty much have them memorized, but sometimes perspective changes everything. lol


@PINNAZ I gotta agree with you on everything up until stating that Maxis sends the O4 to Agartha.

  • Maxis has been the Aethereal controller since the victory at Resolution 1295
  • He Opts to return to 1918, where he loses knowledge of what happened in the future, but is guided by Samantha's cross-dimensional voice, the gateway is successfully opened, he passes through to Agartha along with the 4.
  • Maxis and the 4 learn about the future from Samantha, who has been in Agartha since Moon (how she got there is still unknown, as last we checked, she was fighting for her life alongside Dempsey, Nickolai, and Takeo.)
  • The 4 pass back through the gateway and return to 1945.

Peter would still be dead, chronologically, however, as Richtofen "tricked" him while the test subjects were still in beta. As cool as it would be to meet him, it does not seem possible. Groph and Schuster are still alive, however. 

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NaBrZHunter    489

@PINNAZ @Nightmare Voyager I think we're overlooking a major MAJOR factor. I don't wanna talk about it here yet 'cause I don't wanna release a half-baked idea (in addition to fact that I have 6 or 7 more of my long-winded theses pending) but I really need to brainstorm about it with some well-informed peeps like y'all. 

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Gotta love a good olde theory thread!

 

It begins!

Back to on topic, the first missing piece vital to this theory is how in the sam hell did Samantha get into Agartha from Moon. That was always one of my biggest disappointments in BO2, something I thought Nuketown Zombies had huge potential to explore because of the little EE on round 25. What happened to everyone left on the Moon after the events of that map unfold in BO? I am led to assume they were eventually killed, unless they escaped through NML (which would explain why we get to see how messed up Earth is there once we help Maxis launch the rockets). But let's just assume the O3 + Sam were killed on the Moon after the fact. Given Sam's connection to the Aether for so long, and that it was only her soul in Rictofen's body, maybe once the body she was in died her soul traveled to wherever things in the Aether die (if they can)  go, that being Agartha.

There's also been some debate on what the intentions are of Maxis and Rictofen in the new game, but I haven't seen much regarding what Sam wants. If there is anything that can be clearly taken from the ending scene in Origins, it's that we are led to believe she will be following her father's plan. However I believe that Sam, once again given her tenure in the Aether, could perhaps desire to be the one back in control of everything. Much like how Rictofen went mad with his obsession for power after contact with the MPD, Sam could very well be going through the same affliction and just hides it much better.

Another possible angle from this though, is maybe after all 3 have presumably experienced this "far more terrible" thing that also resides in the Aether which could possibly have a connection with the new Shadow Man, that they are actually trying to stop him/them from whatever it is they want to achieve. This appears to be the plan judging from the comments made by the NO4 in The Giant trailer. 

Only time will tell.

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NaBrZHunter    489

Gotta love a good olde theory thread!

It begins!

 

 

And always amazing how very little we seem to know despite all our knowledge. We've got a forum containing over 30,000 posts and we're still debating something like...what happened after Moon? lol! We need to up our game! 

Haha! Kidding. But yes, @Kill_All_Monkeys definitely a/the million-dollar question right now. It was just very much assumed through BO2, and I don't recall whether Maxis even makes mention of it during Big Bang. Was that added on during BO2? A sort of afterthought?

 Given Sam's connection to the Aether for so long, and that it was only her soul in Rictofen's body, maybe once the body she was in died her soul traveled to wherever things in the Aether die (if they can)  go, that being Agartha.

Well, after being ousted from the MPD, she was technically removed from the Aether; but like you said, maybe it was due to her previous exposure to the Aether that sent her to Agartha after her death.

That, however, would not be consistent with Richtofen's fate after being ousted from the MPD, unless he was simply stuck inside zombies for eternity (as it would seem) and held there, prevented, due to Maxis repeatedly reviving him, from entering Agartha.

So...perhaps...

Richtofen ousts Samantha, essentially casting her out, careless of where she ends up (kind of typical of Richtofen), and when she dies, she enters Agartha because Richtofen did not have the foresight to keep her stuck in a cycle, prolonging her misery and keeping her stuck in the terrestrial timeline, instead, she is allowed to die, and escapes.

When Maxis ousts Richtofen on the other hand, he very deliberately deposits him in a zombie, repeatedly doing so, preventing Richtofen from joining Samantha in Agartha. 

When Maxis (being the Aethereal controller) however effects the return to Origins, prepares a scenario in which he can return to the physical world (with the help of Richtofen and the quadrotor), he interrupts Richtofen's cycle, blocking his elder self from entering Agartha, instead, entering himself first (end of Origins) to be followed by young Richtofen and the others.

On second thought, perhaps one must have spent time as an Aethereal controller, but must be a living physical being with self-control in order to get to Agartha, which would mean that the MPD may be a control center for the Aether, but a dead end in terms of getting to other dimensions. So based on that, Samantha may never have died on Moon, and instead, escaped to Agartha. The others, however, would still have an uncertain fate.

But the only consistent precedent is this: the two individuals who successfully reached Agartha:

  • Had, at one point, controlled from the MPD
  • Left the MPD (Samantha replaced, Maxis 'abdicated,' in a way, but was also forced back into his own body by the re-vitalization of his preserved brain)
  • Had independent, self-controlled motor skills (Samantha in Richtofen's body, Maxis as a quad rotor)

Richtofen, however, is missing the third trait.

One hole in the above that I can think of is that it is unknown what Samantha had to do to get to Agartha, but it sure took a hell of a lot of work to get Maxis there. 

GAH, this is my least favorite part. lol

That was so much BS I can't believe it came from me. Rip it to shreds, guys, I know how messy it is. Just hoping my ramblings might make sense of what is currently a huge discrepancy...or simply a massive unknown.

Edited by NaBrZHunter
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@NaBrZHunter I must say, you know you've made something truly great when people are still discussing it years after its prime time. It's part of the beauty of zombies, how we can be given so much and know so little. Quite brilliant really.

In regards to the whole Agartha dilema, I totally forgot about zombie Rictofen in Buried. Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but even with Maxis wanting to probably torture Rictofen for as long as possible, he would at some point start focusing on other things, like destroying the world if I remember right. So presumably Rictofen would eventually die and not get revived, thus dying and after his soul was tied to the Aether for quite a while, qualifies him for a trip to Agartha. Which would then jive with the ending Origins cutscene being some sort of representation of Agartha through the eyes of Samantha as well as why we don't see Maxis, who would be the one in the Aether at this point, and only hear his voice through the radio thing, sending down the orders to Rictofen and Samantha.

There's not a whole lot supporting this idea right now but it's a possible explanation for what the hell was going on in Origins, omnipotent being wise anyway.

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NaBrZHunter    489

@Kill_All_Monkeys Haha! It truly is.

Y'know...something like that passed through my mind, but it was so overrun by the previous stuff that I didn't bother to think about it further. lol!

Now - I do want to point out that they are not actually omnipotent. Working on another thesis about their restrictions and their powers, which will delve deeper into that, but yeah, sort of...hm...might say "high-availability" consciousness. lol! Been working with too much network infrastructure equipment this week.

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I know omnipotent isn't the right term for those in the Aether, it was just the first word that came to mind in my poor attempt at subtle humor.

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NaBrZHunter    489

I know omnipotent isn't the right term for those in the Aether, it was just the first word that came to mind in my poor attempt at subtle humor.

Hahaha! Now I feel like a jerk. Excuse my legalism. 🙈

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