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Korima

The Giant: Der Riese's Third Cycle

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Korima    7

Hello! So, with the teaser of The Giant, i figured it was time for me to step out of the shadows again since my activity with the Call of The Dead Easter Egg.

So, after replaying the trailer multiple times, and completing origins multiple times, I couldn't help but post my friend and I's findings and theories.


First, regarding The Giant trailer, there's quite a particular topic up for debate right now: Lack of the swastikas on Richtofen and the Teleporters. Personally, we don't believe this was just because it was a world release. Why? If you look at the previous World Release trailers for Der Riese and Kino, they didn't censor them until the region specific trailers released. Now, why would they just suddenly decide to alter it in such a noticeable way?

Lets take a step back a bit in the trailer; The Group 935 logo. There's no 935 in any of the logos. Note, the trailer takes place in Teleporter Z-A of Der Riese. Well, they zoom in on the logo on the wall, which is also missing the "Z-A" in the center of the logo. Now, if they simply wanted to censor the swastika, why would they remove these as well?

Now, lets take a look at the clock. On Der Riese, the clock was frozen  at 1:15 around the 40-35 second mark. On this trailer, the clock is frozen at 1:15, but exactly at 1:15:00. Meaning that while this is repeating events of the past, as we know this is also altering/taking place in a different path of the timeline we know with slight discrepancies.

Finally, before going to the main theory, lets look at  when Origins Richtofen is revealed in the trailer. The Origins 3 know what's in the Teleporter. They know about Origins Richtofen being in there, and what he's planning. Note that Old Richtofen has no gun in his holster; no weapons on him. He also has a strange gold medallion on him thats not there in the previous versions we've seen of him. He purposely opens the teleporter, revealing Origins him, as a large smile appears on his face. Now the kicker: He puts his hat to his chest, and fails to react at all as Origins Richtofen kills him. Why? He Knew Origins him was there to kill him.


Okay, let's get to our main theory now. Lets take a look at Origins first. There were two versions of the intro Cinematic. One with what we assumed to be demonic Samantha voice, and one with regular Samantha voice. I believe these two trailers are the key points to why Origins exists in the first place.

During the events of Moon, Richtofen and Sam swap bodies. This is the only time Maxis, Sam, and Richtofen are in the aether together. Maxis was already aware of Richtofen's treachery, and enacts his counter plan. He basically sparks the events of Origins at that point. He has Samantha basically play out a scenario from the Aether (Which is everywhere, anywhere, anytime at once). In this scenario, Wibbly Wobbly timey wimey shenanigans are involved. We hear the Saman-tofen voice, which explains whats going on to the Original 3 characters, who are technically "Becoming" the Origins 3. Then we see the regular cutscene, which happens when Sam is the only one in the Aether due to the events of Origins actually happening, thus Maxis is trapped in the drone, and Richtofen is back in his normal body in a kind of two-places-at-once sort of ordeal. I'll discuss a bit of this later on though.

Skip forward to Origins ending. The siren at the end of the cutscene; We hear that in one place... Nuketown. Right before a projectile (In the case we frequently hear it, the perk-a-colas) hits. The only time we have to infer it happening is when the missile at the end is about to hit. So... Richtofen and Samantha switch. Origins is in place. By the time Origins happens, the rest of the Moon easter egg is finish. Maxis is about to nuke the earth, destroying the future and creating a paradox, so he tells them to go to the basement. Then the sirens, and the nuke hits.

Let's take a look at the seemingly pointless events of the New 4. As we see, there's two different endings. Both seem to make the events that we see in Origins and The Giant impossible. There's a reason for this: Both endings are canon. They take place separate from Origins and The Giant. This takes place directly after Moon, after Maxis' plans are made. Maxis sparks this sort of 'feud' with Richtofen, knowing that either way The Rift will be mended, in order to distract Richtofen from his real plans. Unfortunately it didn't seem to work, or it may have, but it's hard to say with just The Giant releasing.

Now, back to Origins ending and Maxis' counterplan. We see the Origins 4 rising up into the Aether, despite Eddie's Blue eyed zombies attempting to stop them. They enter the Aether, and Samantha/Maxis catch Dempsey, Takeo, and Nikolai up to speed. They send them back to stop any of the events from happening. Richtofen, also in the aether, enacts his... Counter counter plan? (Unsure of the correct terminology for it) How Origins Richtofen knows what to do? That'll be later... Anyways, Origins Richtofen gets sent back further than the other 3. He meets up with Original Richtofen, and this is the only point I can't be sure of. How far back did he go? He definitely prevented the construction of Moon Base Griffin, as seen from the lack of dots on the moon during the trailer, since it was the main failure of his initial plan (Killing maxis too close to the MPD while it was opening, thus his soul being sucked into the aether and being able to communicate and control computers/electronics)

Anyways, Origins Richtofen lays await at the MPD for Original Richtofen to teleport Maxis and Sam. We've seen in the Moon Radios the MPD had oxygen around it and had the ability to be teleported to without Griffin station being made. Likely Original Richtofen sent him there using the Teleporter, knowing now that Maxis and Sam would be teleported there, and somehow Sam would be able to enter the MPD. So, he lays awaiting Maxis to kill him before he could approach the MPD and have his soul sucked into the Aether, therefore leaving his only threat as Samantha, which he knows how to fix. Likely, that new Amulet that Original Richtofen has on is the Golden Rod/Focusing stone merged into a more portable and less... Noticeable form.

Back to The Giant Trailer. The Origins 4 know Richtofen will be waiting in the Teleporter. Origins Richtofen kills Original Richtofen to look like he's still on their side by stopping the events from happening, but he retrieves the amulet from the corpse and replies to Nikolai's comment: "Only a fool changes the course of History." "I am no fool. What I do is for a better tomorrow." Origins Richtofen knows what he's doing, and knows how to stop Maxis' plan.

The real question is, how many times has this happened? If this is a cycle, could it be the previous map remakes with modern weapons are previous attempts at this cycle happening, with minor changes to history? Could it be that this cycle changed so much that it erased the Nazi's involvement with Group 935; to the point they are no longer known as Group 935. Could this be the Group 601 picture they teased us with prior? Or was Group 601 (Which, unless it was a hoax appeared in the game files for an unused loading screen for the original Der Riese) the very first cycle of Der Riese (World at War, or even prior to our experience in World at War)? Or could they have dropped the 935 and simply became their true front, which, taking credit from AlphaSnake's Post, become simply known as The 87? Better yet, could Maxis' creation/interference in Origins in WW1 cause a ripple effect across history, potentially stopping WWII from happening, or changing the enemies through it? Time travel can be trickey (as many Whovians or Bioshock fans will know).


Another thing we can relate to the Cycle point is, (and a point I can't seem to fit into this theory, but I'm sure we can relate it with modification somewhere) is back to the intro of Origins. At the end of the cutscene of Origin's intro, Richtofen seems to be very disconcerted and confused, looking at his hands strangely, like he's realizing they're there and looking around. He also seems to know who Samantha is before the others. Reason for this, if Samantha and Maxis basically hit the reset  button, or changed the events of the past (Thus affecting WWI, hence the robots and steampunk-esque items), Richtofen could have been "Thrown" from the aether back into his own body, much like Maxis returns to his spot within the regular realm, but still retaining his machine form.... just in a different sense. It's very much a bioshock-style theory: There's always a Richtofen. Always a Maxis with machines. Always a Samantha. But circumstances can be different. I can't seem to fit this in, simply because it means Aether Richtofen is the Origins Richtofen, but leaves a plothole as to who Eddie is (Unless it's yet ANOTHER Richtofen) and the blue-eyed zombies in Origins.

 

As always, please be as brutal as possible to deconstruct this or point out what I may have missed/needs improvement. I feel like we're close to something, but there's too many holes for this to be completely on point. I'll edit the post later if anything changes or improves. -Korima

1st EDIT 7/18/15: So... I can't believe we missed this. There's a part in the trailer where Dempsey says "DAMN IT Richtofen, We've been over this!" which means that more than likely they've done this before. This does definitely support the Cycle theory, and the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Der Riese series. If the remake ones in Black Ops were the 2nd cycle, they probably tried to stop it, but events continued as we know, thus the "We've been over this!"  quote.

 

2nd EDIT 7/18/15: Thanks to NaBrZHunter There's a few things clarified and a modification to this theory. While the whole "Time ripple, no nazi" idea is great, it's too much of a jump. Too much of a ripple effect. Taking his post into mind, it is likely a form of censorship as the trailers I mentioned before were when zombies were just releasing and picking up on the hype potential. Now that it's literally a hype train, and the audience is far larger than ever before, thus catering to the many rather the few, which is understandably so.

Edited by Korima
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NaBrZHunter    489

@Korima

That would be such an enormous ripple...so enormous to completely eliminate the Nazi Regime. People may make fun of preference for 'historical accuracy,' perhaps because that is the wrong word. Maybe more of a 'historical embellishment.' This is a factor that has always made the Zombies story so 'believable' as it were. And despite my statement pointing out that 935 was not a Nazi organization, it gave excellent explanation for their immoral and extreme research and activity that no other can. It's based on similar organizations, activities and secret projects conducted by scientists who were paid, coerced, or otherwise acquired by the Third Reich. Without the Nazi plan to create an 'Undead Army,' Group 935's mission statement "To Improve the Human Condition" would never call for the creation of zombies. So inevitably, they are still associated with the Nazis. Otherwise, we're looking at Advanced Warfare's ATLAS retold. No historic basis, no concrete motive for evil  

Additionally, unlike in the past, the Zombies game mode is at the peak of its success, with the whole international community waiting with baited breath for the Giant release trailer. To release the first trailer to what may be the most anticipated Zombies map of all time with only the crowd that does not require censorship wouldn't make sense.

And replacing the Swastikas on the teleporters with the 935 logo may have simply been done to yes, minimize the required censorship. We shall see. It was clearly not an 'Easter Egg,' as it was in plain sight, though virtually impossible to 'censor' in any other way (than the Iron Cross, which really wouldn't make more sense than the 935 logo) for an international trailer. 

As far as Griffin Station's creation is concerned, construction on it began well over two years before the events of the trailer. And as far as ripple effect is concerned, the only way to interrupt that event is for Richtofen to have failed in the creation of the teleporter initially. He was inspired to create Griffin Station upon his discovery of the MPD, which occurred before he even began to lose his sanity.

So again, in order for that to have been interrupted, the ripple effect would have inhibited the successful creation of the MTD in the first place. 

NOTE ON EDIT: Dempsey actually states "I thought we were done with this," which may only imply that he thought Origins was the end, or that something else we've yet to learn. 

I will say, however, that I do think it it plausible to Origins Richtofen is up to something that the others don't know yet. He's always been that way, and hopefully will stay that way. 

And I'd like to say, your thoughts and research are duly appreciated! Keep working, let's knock this thing out!

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BombProof    25

Wow, awesome post OP! I have a headache now, but I love this 'third cycle' idea. Could it be possible that the default color for the zombies' eyes are blue in origins? Samantha did say, "I'm going to tell you how all this really began." (paraphrasing). I don't know, but maybe it all began with blue eyes.

However, as much as I like this theory as a whole, NaBrZHunter is correct by what he states in his post. 

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Korima    7

@Korima

That would be such an enormous ripple...so enormous to completely eliminate the Nazi Regime. People may make fun of preference for 'historical accuracy,' perhaps because that is the wrong word. Maybe more of a 'historical embellishment.' This is a factor that has always made the Zombies story so 'believable' as it were. And despite my statement pointing out that 935 was not a Nazi organization, it gave excellent explanation for their immoral and extreme research and activity that no other can. It's based on similar organizations, activities and secret projects conducted by scientists who were paid, coerced, or otherwise acquired by the Third Reich. Without the Nazi plan to create an 'Undead Army,' Group 935's mission statement "To Improve the Human Condition" would never call for the creation of zombies. So inevitably, they are still associated with the Nazis. Otherwise, we're looking at Advanced Warfare's ATLAS retold. No historic basis, no concrete motive for evil  

Additionally, unlike in the past, the Zombies game mode is at the peak of its success, with the whole international community waiting with baited breath for the Giant release trailer. To release the first trailer to what may be the most anticipated Zombies map of all time with only the crowd that does not require censorship wouldn't make sense.

And replacing the Swastikas on the teleporters with the 935 logo may have simply been done to yes, minimize the required censorship. We shall see. It was clearly not an 'Easter Egg,' as it was in plain sight, though virtually impossible to 'censor' in any other way (than the Iron Cross, which really wouldn't make more sense than the 935 logo) for an international trailer. 

As far as Griffin Station's creation is concerned, construction on it began well over two years before the events of the trailer. And as far as ripple effect is concerned, the only way to interrupt that event is for Richtofen to have failed in the creation of the teleporter initially. He was inspired to create Griffin Station upon his discovery of the MPD, which occurred before he even began to lose his sanity.

So again, in order for that to have been interrupted, the ripple effect would have inhibited the successful creation of the MTD in the first place. 

NOTE ON EDIT: Dempsey actually states "I thought we were done with this," which may only imply that he thought Origins was the end, or that something else we've yet to learn. 

I will say, however, that I do think it it plausible to Origins Richtofen is up to something that the others don't know yet. He's always been that way, and hopefully will stay that way. 

And I'd like to say, your thoughts and research are duly appreciated! Keep working, let's knock this thing out!

I actually do see your point regarding the censorship on this end, however the missing 935 and Z-A on the Group 935 logos are still relevant to the ripple effect. I actually didn't take into account the fact they hyped it up so much prior to release to such a large audience that they'd have to censor it due to the massive audience compared to years ago. The only reason I state the moon base was not constructed due to the lack of red markings on the moon we've seen in the previous two incarnations of Der Riese, meanings it's definitely not there, or at least on the scale we see in Moon. Perhaps, because Original Richtofen definitely interacted or knew Origins Richtofen was there to kill him (Hence the lack of pistol, reaction to the zombies, and the way he lowered his hat as though expecting to be killed), whatever it was that informed Original richtofen what was going to happen was well before the MTD was created. Or perhaps Origins Richtofen appeared during the first tests of the MTD to set this new plan in motion. That could be why 3arc specifically put a radio regarding the walnut transportation rather than just giving us background regarding Schuster/Groph/Richtofen relation.

Wow, awesome post OP! I have a headache now, but I love this 'third cycle' idea. Could it be possible that the default color for the zombies' eyes are blue in origins? Samantha did say, "I'm going to tell you how all this really began." (paraphrasing). I don't know, but maybe it all began with blue eyes.

However, as much as I like this theory as a whole, NaBrZHunter is correct by what he states in his post. 

Also going off this, I'm thinking the blue eyes was due to Samantha and Eddie both "Playing" zombies together. Sam technically has the main "control", so the main zombies we see have yellow eyes, while as Eddie is more of a side character during this "playthrough" so the minor zombies have the blue eyes.

As for zombie's original eye color, I'd like to say red, but that's a topic up for debate due to the lack of evidence. Only reason I  believe red is due to MotD's eye color, however it's unknown if that's an incarnation/version of Shadow Man controlling them, or if it's Brutus.

 

But thank you both for the responses! I really hope when the maps drop we'll have some answers, but I live for this kind of brainstorming together! =D -Korima

Edited by Korima
Adding second quote and finishing post

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BombProof    25

@Korima

Oh yeah, that makes sense, because Eddie complained about not having his turn (not having a major role in the game). Could it be possible then for MOTD and Origins to be in the same universe if red is the original eye color? I only wonder because there's been a bit of controversy over this quote by Dempsey in Origins, "This looks familiar. I think I saw it in a comic book somewhere." This is what Dempsey says when taking the ray gun from the mystery box.

The connection people want to make with this quote is Weasel's comic book. Weasel is a character from MOTD, he created a comic book and drew the ray gun. Many people seem to think that Dempsey has seen Weasel's comic book, which means Weasel's comic book is in the same universe as Origins, which ultimately puts Weasel and MOTD in the same universe as Origins too.

I don't know what to think of this personally, I kind of want to stay away from that theory because it just complicates things even more. This would however, solve the idea of what the zombie eye color was originally, if MOTD was before anything else.

It honestly depends on which comic Dempsey is talking about though, it could be anything. Many comics in the real world that are based in space have a gun resembling the ray gun, it just appears to be the ideal space weapon. So it could be any comic book, not necessarily Weasel's comic book.

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Korima    7

@Korima

Oh yeah, that makes sense, because Eddie complained about not having his turn (not having a major role in the game). Could it be possible then for MOTD and Origins to be in the same universe if red is the original eye color? I only wonder because there's been a bit of controversy over this quote by Dempsey in Origins, "This looks familiar. I think I saw it in a comic book somewhere." This is what Dempsey says when taking the ray gun from the mystery box.

The connection people want to make with this quote is Weasel's comic book. Weasel is a character from MOTD, he created a comic book and drew the ray gun. Many people seem to think that Dempsey has seen Weasel's comic book, which means Weasel's comic book is in the same universe as Origins, which ultimately puts Weasel and MOTD in the same universe as Origins too.

I don't know what to think of this personally, I kind of want to stay away from that theory because it just complicates things even more. This would however, solve the idea of what the zombie eye color was originally, if MOTD was before anything else.

It honestly depends on which comic Dempsey is talking about though, it could be anything. Many comics in the real world that are based in space have a gun resembling the ray gun, it just appears to be the ideal space weapon. So it could be any comic book, not necessarily Weasel's comic book.

MotD takes place around 1933, while as Origins takes place during 1918 or so. This complicates things a bit, unless Dempsey and the others retained some of their memories from before this new cycle. That helps with the confused Richtofen case, but seems to make it difficult as to how much knowledge they know. Actually, thinking about it a bit, it may help this theory a bit.

If, for instance, when they went to the aether, they didnt meet with sam. They had this knowledge prior to meeting Sam, but much like when they were brainwashed (A la Call of the Dead radios) the memories come back little by little, except Richtofen. Why though? Perhaps because he actually was in the aether at the time, or is in the aether at the same time? Or is the Richtofen in the aether a different Richtofen, but because there's multiple richtofens in the same timeline, he shares some of the knowledge with each other because they are technically the same person. If that's the case, when Origins Richtofen is sent back, he didnt HAVE to meet with Original Richtofen, since they are in the same timeline and share knowledge. Hivemind in a way. This actually makes my head hurt a bit more now, lol. -Korima

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BombProof    25

@Korima

Oh that's right, I'm getting all my timelines mixed up now. That theory means there is a mighty big paradox going on right there, but it sounds like a possibility. It is obvious that the Origins characters seem to know something of what's going on, especially when they get to "The Giant", I really hope playing the map itself will secure some of the theories everyone has.

The thing is, if MOTD and Origins are in the same universe, and the comic that Dempsey saw was Weasel's, that means Origins Dempsey must have been in the future at some point to see it, assuming the comic was written after 1918. But because of not being able to remember much, he doesn't really know. 

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A cycle a game keeps the Doctor away. I'm not sorry for making that joke but I will leave now, good post.

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