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Ehjookayted

How to Debate & Avoid Arguments

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Ehjookayshun 101: Debating vs. Arguing

The basis of CODZ as a whole is theory and recently, strategy. We are approaching the pinnacle of zombie lore, as only those who dwell in the Pantheon of Greatness could imagine. A dual expertise in strategy and story is one every site envies. However, as the first trailer of Black Ops 2 Zombies draws near, we face an inevitable slew of theories, some brilliant, some good, some that could use work.

Furthermore, we face a situation in which we will take on many new users, many of whom will be versed in the ways of the other internet forums A.K.A. trolling and disparaging comments. Let me be clear when I say this: we have never and will never encourage or condone flaming of any user or idea. This forum is different, better even, than others, as respect will be given when respect is shown. Never, I repeat, never forget this.

So I present to you my friends, the ultimate guide to debating on strategy, theory, or anything else in life. This is not strategy; this is life. I hope this benefits your days on CODZ and on other forums.

As a final note, this is based on my experiences on CODZ. I have created many threads and been in many debates, none of which have resulted in a flame war or an argument.

Here is a quick table of contents on what I'll be covering here. The CTRL+F feature makes its return. Use it!

1. Why Do People Argue? [$WHY]

2. What Should I Do? [$WHAT]

3. Understanding the Other Person [$UNDR]

4. Left with No Other Options [$LEFT]

5. Key Words [$KEY]

6. Making a Point and Keeping Peace [$KEEP]

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Why Do People Argue? [$WHY]

     Keep this in mind as you get into theorizing and debating. People will defend their argument, but if you present to them a set of valid points that are not harmful or detrimental to their work, then you are more likely to respond with positive feedback and understanding.

     A light tease is accompanied by a wink. ;) A whole series of constructive criticism could be followed up by a smile :) or a very happy face. :D

     An argument occurs because of a couple things: assumptions, foul language directed at someone, or lack of validation and understanding. Now that we've figured that part out, we can move on.

What Should I Do? [$WHAT]

     For example, I can see that a thread has some information incorrect or even poorly formatted. However, instead of directly insulted the person who made this thread (very few people do this, anyway), I can say: "Your ideas are good and I can tell you thought about this a lot. However, I would like to say that we have discussed previously X. How do you feel about this point? Also, you might want to consider spacing out the paragraphs, it makes it easier to read. Overall, good job :)

     However, do not outright say "You're wrong," or just "I don't agree with you." Here's why: people like to know where they've gone wrong or what they can improve. Lastly, the human condition is a sensitive one. Most users on this site are rather young and the importance of constructive criticism is enormous. Avoid sarcasm, hyperbole, and demeaning rhetoric in counter posts. There are lines you do not want to cross, and immediately calling out another user for being "wrong" is definitely crossing the line.

     After all, I personally do not believe there is any bad work out there, it's all unpolished, and if we can learn to be respectful before a viral campaign breaks loose, then this forum will be very enjoyable and wonderful. Remember, older users and those with lots of reputation are role models for others. Attitude reflects leadership.

Understanding the Other Person [$UNDR]

     Before you say anything to another user, make sure you take a look at when they joined, how many posts they have, how many brains, etc. Treat such appropriately. If they're a new user, treat them gently. If they're someone you know, that's different. But remember, no one really knows anyone on here. Be careful when criticizing anyone's work. It's all about constructive criticism!

     Now, let me direct this to theory. Zombie Storyline discussions here are purely theory. And what is theory? It is personal, subjective intellectual analysis of certain bits of information tied into patterns and ideas. Keyword: personal, subjective. What is subjective? Well, it's based on an individual, and each person takes the time to use what they've learned in their life to draw conclusions where they may find similarities. Essentially, each person uses their own life experiences to formulate and analyze, so transitively, if we criticize and attempt to demean someone's theory, we are basically destroying their life experiences or their education. Take this into account whenever you think about negatively commenting on someone's hard work or even ground work.

Left with No Other Options [$LEFT]

     You can either use very good language, especially I messages as well as collective nouns, such as community, to get a point across, or you can report the post for flaming. Either way, you need to act in some way to relieves you, and only you. However, there is a fine line between being firm and flaming. Avoid the use of you as well as swear words. Capitalize and use punctuation correctly. Grammar and spelling make an argument more effective and give you more credibility.

     Here's an excerpt from cracked.com's article on 7 Words You Can't Say on the Internet (Without Starting a Flame War)

WARNING- Foul language ahead! The text will be blacked out for a double spoiler effect, somewhat.

Words You Can't Say on the Internet (Without Starting a Flame War)

I love the Internetits my teacher, my job, my lover with a thousand vaginasso I want to talk about the Internet, and especially words on the Internet. Because besides pictures, movies, numbers, sounds, and flash animations of people dancing in silhouette about their APR, words are all we really have on the Internet.

We use them to tell people how we feel--usually about them--we use them to converse with people from all over the world about why their country is so shitty, and in general, we use whatever words we want. Its liberating, right? Fuck this! Gayyyyy. Posts are padded with pricks and forums are filled with fucks. Not literally of course, that would require a lot of video embed.

But we say what we want, dont we? We say things you cant say on TV. Things George Carlin only said offstage, and thats saying something. And we start to think that we can say anything, because really, who cares? Its the motherfucking Internet. Its not like school, not like the Internet can go Hey! Who said that? Which one of you little snots called me a bowl of menstrual soup?

BUT there are those words. Those words that almost guarantee youre going to spend the next eight hours getting death threats in your private messages folder. Things you say out of anger, when youve spent your lunch hour systematically deconstructing the arguments of a 14-year-old fuck who thinks he knows so goddamn much about the Spiderman mythos.

So unless you get off on hitting refresh all day, then there are words that you kind ofstop using on the Internet. Because lets face it: unless youre browsing through pornography, and thats only about sixty percent of the time, theres still a bare level of human decency that most people seem to expect. And there are seven words you just cant post without risking becoming the one-man figurehead of the losing side of a flame war.

You want to know what they are?

Nigger, cunt, faggot, Sieg Heil, Scientology, baby-rape and meh.

Nigger and cunt I understand. They just hit the brain wrong; racism, sexism, its like a perfect matching set of intolerance. And even though its a well-rehearsed fact of Internet life that were all white nerds with (albeit tiny) penises living in our parents basements, you try calling someone a nigger cunt online and see how many black women there suddenly seem to be surfing at four in the morning.

But thats understandable; these are two oppressed groups, people get kind of touchy when you start picking on the oppressed. You can even keep the ironic approximation of black language, just not the word, at least if you want to get in and out without having to fabricate a history of civil rights activism to prove you're not a Grand Wizard.

Faggots a slippery one. You can say fag all day, and no one seems to mind. I guess if youre stupid enough to care what two guys do with each others butts or jealous that you cant get anal sex and they can, people kind of disregard your opinions anyway. But faggot? Uh-oh. Now were in hard consonant territory. You dont fuck around in hard consonant territory.

If the faggot gauntlet has been thrown, you can bet someone in this conversation is hunched over their keyboard, mashing it with all their angry might. It must be that got at the end that does it. As if youre angry because theyve taken over. Oh no! The fag got me! He used to just be there!

Sieg Heil, thats your Hitler reference, which you still cant whip out without some backlash. Thats impressive staying power. I mean five, six decades on and hes still the worlds number one symbol of evil. Imagine that. Hes like the Mickey Mouse of evil. Except Goofy is Goebbels and Minnie is on fire in a ditch.

Its more than Manson can say, that slacker. He even tried to ride on Hitlers coattails with that swastika on the forehead; come of it Charlie, we all know you aint the guy. So Hitlers outprobably not coming back into vogue any time soon, unless its ironically or because brown stirrup pants and red armbands make it big.

Speaking of ironic: baby rape. Again, not a bad sounding phrase. Almost sounds like baby grape, which is actually kind of pleasant. Even switching the words isnt as bad: rape, baby. I mean, still inappropriate, but it sure sounds a lot cooler.

But baby rape is usually deployed ironically nowadays. Really the whole pedophilia domain. Many people like pulling it out as the shock card in forums. Baby eating, puppy killing, theyre all good. And of course youve got rape, which is right up there with AIDS in terms of shit youre not supposed to joke about. So every smart aleck online simultaneously thought: Jesus, you know whats hilarious? The thought of forcing myself, sexually, on a baby.

Of course, that thought has to be translated into a wry joke first. Just post Id like to force myself, sexually, on a baby and youre going to feel the full force of the Internet shouting you down and may even receive a friendly visit from some men who work for the government and would like to examine your hard drive. After all, everyone likes fucking with people and feeling good about it at the same time, and theres not a lot more satisfying that fucking a baby rapist. Or maybe there is, but only the baby rapist and the ancient Greeks know for sure.

As for Scientology, theyre kind of in the Bill Cosby class of words, insofar as just mentioning them isnt a killer, but do it enough andtheyll be watching. And you can even get away with it, as long as you only frequent forums that their lawyers dont bother checking out. I doubt many Scientologist figureheads are lurking in 4Chan threads; the Rickrolls alone would make it a futile effort. But mention them in less-than-glowing terms on Youtube or any other major site, and youre in for something that makes Internet flame wars look tame: a cease-and-desist letter. Oooh.

Post enough passionate diatribes against that particular cult and next thing you know youve lost your social security number, your last eight tax returns are being audited, and way more people than usual stop you on the street to ask what your crimes are.

Now I know what youre saying: whats wrong with meh? It sounds like the sound made by an adorable imaginary animal. But no. The sound of meh is the sound of the person who thinks so little of your input, they cant be bothered to type gayyyy. The person too lazy to articulate their thoughts beyond a monosyllabic interjection, and yet so confident in their opinion that they will casually cast judgment on your entire being. Dont bore me, they warn. And when faced with that kind of ultimatum, theres really only one answer:

Well, seven actually.

Read more: 7 Words You Can't Say On The Internet (Without Starting A Flame War) | Cracked.com http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-words-you ... z1l8epfXYp

     There's nothing better than not insulting someone and talking about yourself. After all, everyone's a little egotistical, right? So here's what I'm saying. Do not, and I repeat, do not start off with some kind of insult. Absolutely never say anything negative that leads with "You are so ____." I understand that you are all passionate about your work and feel strongly about it, but try to talk about yourself. The use of "I-messages" is effective in dealing with a situation.

Making a Point and Keeping Peace [$KEEP]

     We will use one of the site's oldest examples here to illustrate how to not make a point and not keep the peace. :lol:

     Look at the highlighted things. These are not ways to endear yourself to anyone, let alone a user who had just poured all the time out for a long and well-researched thread. Furthermore, the term "brain whore" is not good for anyone that has a lot of brains. It just sends out the wrong message, even though you may not be referencing the person directly, it was still thought brain whore was referencing the author of the thread. Clarity. Be clear when you make an argument. People cannot tell sarcasm so easily. Like I said, emoticons :D

     This is pure artistry in the ways of debating and writing. The way this was written was beauty defined. It got 5 reputation points just for reference. First, he agreed, second he went to make his point intelligently and brilliantly. Look at how he uses the words of this man against him. He uses his words sarcastically to further highlight the irony of this clan leader, successfully making his words seem cheap and weak. Try to fashion your arguments such as this. One more good example. I'll use one of mine from the same thread.

Not to be rude TheNaziZombiePro but bumping is frowned upon on this site, and while your clan is great, this thread is counterproductive to the entire concept of teammate finder. Teammate finder is a place where you can hop on, add some good people, and then continue on your merry way.

Clan application processes are too lengthy for some people and the entire concept of a clan connotes commitment, which is generally not what people using teammate finder are looking for.

We already have Team Grim Reapers, which is a well organized list of all 30 round+ zombie players, most of whom enjoy playing with anyone who has a mic or can communicate and listen.

I do not mean to be abrasive or harsh, but please contribute more to the site than your frequent bumps. If you are the leader of a respectable, and best clan in the world, give us insight into how you run it, suggest things, pose theories, etc, instead of continuously trying to get yourself noticed. ;)

Take care,

Ehjookayted

P.S. I know I just bumped this thread by replying, but I had to say something.

     These points that were made by MegaAfroMan and myself are not dealing in theory, but they contain the essentials required to deal with a user that has gone off the edge. If you want to read up on the thread, it's in Teammate Finder. I won't link it, but you can search it just fine. And chances are, if you know how to use search, you deserve to read the thread. ;)

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That's it guys! Thanks for reading. I hope that I helped you learn something in some way and my last piece of advice is this:

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

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Great post mate,and the last sentence in this post sums it up perfectly: you're encouraged to state your opinions on these forums, it's a discussion forum after all... but be respectful towards others and their opinions and choose your words carefully. You could say a sentence with exactly the same meaning twice in a row, differently wording it each time, one could be taken as advice and another could be seen as plain disrespectfulness (is that a word? It is now!).

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Agree with it all buddy. I mean how hard is it to give constructive criticism these days? Or at least be the good guy in an argument and walk away or stay calm and compose yourself? Seems the sentence "Treat others the way you want to be treated" is unheard of. But this forum is doing fantastically at keeping its self composed! :)

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Finally! The thread I have heard about for how long now? Of course I don't mind you using my work! More people crafting lyrical coffins for the trolls would be better than more flame works any day! This is written quite well. Congrats Eye!

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Finally! The thread I have heard about for how long now? Of course I don't mind you using my work! More people crafting lyrical coffins for the trolls would be better than more flame works any day! This is written quite well. Congrats Eye!

Probably about a month!

Anyway, thanks. And guys, I think we have something here: lyrical coffin of death. It has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Maybe there should be a new usergroup for troll slayers. :lol:

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It's also important to point out that ALL of the time the best solution is to Just ignore it.

Especially during the next game, It's best to just ignore things sometimes, and if you need to debate just take it to PM. (It ends up making the thread look spammed if you debate publicly)

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This is a good ehjookayshun post!

Well I can see that this will help a bunch of people. As well as reduce the number of those brushfire wars popping up.

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Thanks! And why did this get moved? It would better benefit users in the Site News section in my opinion. It goes well with AfroMan's User Manual. Brains aren't an issue, it's the fact that off-topic isn't something everyone checks. Although it is befitting here as of late... ;)

I'll leave it up to you guys in green and black and red.

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the most important thing to remember is that humans are not designed for rational discussion, they are designed to debate to win. Keep in mind that discussion is supposed to be the search for truth, and it is very possible to be wrong.

Evolutionarily speaking, the most successful people were the ones who won the most arguments, not the ones who were actually right. So you are going to, by default, want to argue that you're right even if deep down you know that the other person has the upper hand (and you hate them for it).

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Well more so to everyone I suppose. In forums, specifically about games of similar interest, there's obviously going to be topics some agree on, and others don't. There's nothing wrong with a decent argument or debate, but if it's just simply going no where, both sides have to agree to disagree sooner or later.

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I feel as though, at this juncture, this thread could use some more attention. The new influx of users has brought a lot of hate and spite, according to some. Some users even feel attacked and misunderstood, so I ask you all to please read this for the sake of the forums and our users.

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This was a great post and deserves to be brought to the attention of others. Is it possible that it could be linked in the CoC?

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I was just rereading this the other day while looking through old posts.

This brings back so many memories.

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Those were the days, weren't they, James?

Thanks, Boom. I decided that this thread was worth a sticky more than my UOTM thread, especially since that gets linked every month anyway. I don't know how okay it would be for this to be in the Code of Conduct as a link, but I'd definitely be up for referencing people to it whenever arguments arise.

Thanks for reminding me of this thread, guys. :)

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Excellent work, but I disagree to a degree. I personally enjoy disagreements and debates, and love it when I'm proven wrong.

Please don't hit the exclamation icon just yet until the end.

Debates and disagreements are the fuels for forums, and quite frankly topics would be enormously boring if everyone unanimously agree with the poster. Imagine a movie or a story without an nemesis. I would argue that a dominant antagonist to root against is more prevalent than a protagonist to cheer for.

A typical non disagreement topic.

"Town of all maps is the most likely to remind you of BO1. No bank, no perma perks, no overwhelming wonder weapons. One of the hardest and most time consuming."

The next 5 responses: "agreed", "nice post", "bravo", "Jay for president", and "I love town". I don't know what's more boring than that.

But one filled with educated debates:

"Town is my least favorite. It lacks the intricacies of BO2 maps and the new age of wonder weapons."

Or "Town is boring. It is small and gets broing pretty quickly. Lava is annoying, PAP in lava is even more annoying, and lack of innovative adds to a BO2 map is beyond imaginable."

I do agree that negative disagreements shall be avoided at all costs, much like the following.

"Jay you suck and go eat some muffins".

I personally enjoy debates and seeing informative arguments from each sides. I have no problem being proven wrong, given you provide facts and evidence of such.

Thanks for reading and feel free to disagree.

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Jay, one of us is misunderstanding the post.

I thought this post was about how debate is good! However arguing is bad.

This thread talks about how to debate, and how it is different than arguing.

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I actually have had a link in to this thread in my storyline thread for the past many months. I try to employ. I could do better at times, but regardless, this thread is a good thread. Woo for nostalgia.

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Thanks guys, and thanks for the post, Jay.

But I have to agree with James. The title of the thread is How to Debate & Avoid Arguments, so I'm basically discouraging arguments in favor of more respectful debates, better yet: debating/arguing are not the same, and debates are good, while arguments are bad.

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